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Any practicing Catholics out there? Did you get your ashes today? Does your Church require you to attend Mass to get them?
Moderator: Moderators
Note that Elizabeth calls Mary the "mother of my Lord" Lk( 1:43). This is equivalent of the title "Mother of God" which the Church has formally given to Mary since the fifth century. Although Jesus has two nature --- human and divine --- He is one person, a divine person, and this person is God (see Lk 1:35). Because Mary is Jesus' mother, she is the Mother of God. Mothers give birth to persons, not natures. Moreover, the title "Mother of God," while rightly exalting Mary, more specifically points to the divinity of Jesus Christ.Burninglight wrote:I could relate to you more if you said Mary is the mother of the son of man (Jesus); but don't say she is the mother of the son of God or of God. There is nothing Scriptural about that or praying to Mary. Many Catholics look to Mary more than Christ for their salvation, because they see her as a mother and someone who might be more abounding in mercy.
Based on your original post, you make the claim that there are those that say she is a goddess and thus are engaged in idolatry.I speak from experience as I was once Catholic; I have heard it with my own ears that Mary was considered to the the Queen of Heaven by Catholics. I haven't heard her being a goddess, but IMO, that's what she is if she is really god's mother.
Yes we can as I have shown above. Care to refute it?Just because we believe in the deity of Christ that doesn't mean we can refer to her as "Mother of God"
Yes there is as ahown above. Here it is again: Note that Elizabeth calls Mary the "mother of my Lord" Lk ( 1:43). This is equivalent of the title "Mother of God." Who is Elizabeth's Lord?You quoted from Scriptures that's referring to the Church not Mary the Church is known as the bride of Christ. You are using inferences from verses to support your views. There is no explicit Scriptures to condone calling Mary mother of God! The Lord rebuke that in Jesus name!
Mary intercedes for us just as Abraham interceded for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. She does not save or redeem us.If you believe in Jesus for the salvation of your soul and not in Mary, you do well. Mary cannot save your soul or redeem you in God's eyes. She had to come to Christ like the rest of us.
Mary is Ever VirginShe didn't remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus Christ.
You misunderstanding Matthew 1:25 (Joseph knew her "not until")Joseph knew her like a man knows a woman.
Based on what you wrote above, Jesus, who is God, was born of Mary; therefore Mary is the Mother of Jesus and thus the Mother of God.The Magi most certainly was not bowing to worship Mary or Joseph who were present at our Lord's birth. It was Jesus only Yeshua the Lord of lords. He has no mother partner nor does God the father have a mother or wife partner. Jesus is the word of God made flesh.
I have. I think you should apply your own advice to yourself.Read the Scriptures carefully friend. You have as zeal, but not according to knowledge; "you err not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof."
Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.Burninglight wrote:I might like to add, since you quoted Luke 1:43, that you look a little further ahead for the proper context where Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
Notice that Mary is calling Jesus her savior and his servant. Mary would have to submit to Jesus' Lordship just like all kindred, nations and tongues. What was done to Mary was from God only. She was simply a chosen vessel.
Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 ("All have sinned")She will always be called blessed for it, but never worshipped as if she were deity and conceived without sin. It is written: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God..." The only exception is Jesus (Yeshua). Sin and iniquity are passed down through the father's line never the mother's. Jesus Son of God was the only sinless person that ever existed since the world began for God is His father! This is the gospel meaning good news. Jesus saved Mary and us all that believe on His name: "For there is no other name given whereby we might be saved except for Jesus Christ"
No you do not make a good case for Scripture itself proves you incorrect: Mary is Mother of God, Mary is ever-virgin and thus had no other children after Jesus, as already addressed in prior post.I notice that you called Mary the virgin Mother of God. First of all I hope I made a good case that God has no mother; for God always was and always will be. Next Mary was the virgin mother of our Lord. She had children after Jesus was born. So get "is a virgin" present tense out of your discussion.
When Jesus instructed His disciples not to "heap up empty phrases," He was focussing on the "vain," and not on the "repetition." In other words, Jesus was was referring to redundant babbling without thinking, or prayer that seeks the praise of men and not God (see Jn 12:43). This is because God judges our prayers by looking into our hearts, not necessarily at our words. Take for instance the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke 18: 10-14. Jesus said the tax collector was justified because of his sincerity and humilty, while the arrogant Pharisee was not.You are right Jesus didn't mention repetitous prayer, but he did say “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Mary is a powerful intercessor for us in Heaven. Note what Irenaeus writes of her:however, when I used to pray "Holy Mary mother of God pray for our sinners now and at the hour of our death amen" This is an empty phrase that Jesus spoke of. I repented of it.
I wish the same for you but that you return to the One, True Faith.I hope & pray you come to the knowledge of truth friend!
PBUY
The idea of sola scriptura did not exist until the 16th century when Luther broke from the Catholic Church and needed some other basis for authority. The Catholic Church also draws on tradition and continued deepening of understanding as sources of knowledge. So do Protestants even though they claim to get everything from the Bible.Burninglight wrote:There is only one true catholic church. Those denominational tags people wear saying I am Catholic, I am Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist, Episcopalian and etc. Those tags will fall off when and if they go to heaven, in hell they burn off. You say Mary is lowly compared to God, but how can she be if she is the Mother of God? Is a mother lowly compared to her child? Where in the Bible does it refer to Mary as "Mother of God?" I hear none of the apostles glorifying her.
How can you say Jesus had no brothers from Mary? I can not find Mary worship justified in Scripture. If she was sinless and Immaculate as you say, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul would have mentioned this. Not once do they give her praise or glory. Man has simply made an idol of Mary and that is sin. Protestant Christians know it and so do Muslims! Protestant means protest. They came out of the deception in the church. Again the Scriptures you give don't justify Mary worship. You are making very poor inferences that it does. This kind of stuff gives Christians a black eye. I want no part of it.
Without a deepening of understanding culminating in The Council of Constantinople, the full blown doctrine of the Trinity would be very hard to arrive at from just reading scripture. The idea of Original Sin as expressed by Augustine is not easy to get out of the Bible either, unless you have reason to look for it.Holy tradition…is dynamic in application, yet unchanging in dogma. It is growing in expression, yet ever the same in essence.
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The Catholic Church holds that the Faith continues to deepen and develop over time, and in our understanding of it, all the while staying the same; thus the doctrine of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, the divine motherhood, the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary, along with other central Catholic Christian doctrines were not fully defined until many years after Christ had ascended and the Apostles had died, and that our understanding of them may continue to deepen, not only through mystical experience, but through the sciences of philosophy and theology, exemplified by the Scholastics, such as Saint Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, and William of Ockham of the High Middle Ages. A common metaphor used to explain this phenomenon is to think of a seed: over time, it grows into a tall oak, but its identity and essence is still the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_tra ... x_Churches
Relying on Scripture to prove this and that shows that you have no argument from the start. No where in Scripture does it say that all teachings must be found therein. The Apostles were given the mandate to preach the Good News; and they did so by speaking, ie, orally, not by referring to the NT which did not even exist as yet. Sola Scriptura is an error practiced by so may Christians that have separated themselves from the Catholic Church.Burninglight wrote:There is only one true catholic church. Those denominational tags people wear saying I am Catholic, I am Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist, Episcopalian and etc. Those tags will fall off when and if they go to heaven, in hell they burn off. You say Mary is lowly compared to God, but how can she be if she is the Mother of God? Is a mother lowly compared to her child? Where in the Bible does it refer to Mary as "Mother of God?" I hear none of the apostles glorifying her.
How can you say Jesus had no brothers from Mary? I can not find Mary worship justified in Scripture. If she was sinless and Immaculate as you say, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul would have mentioned this. Not once do they give her praise or glory. Man has simply made an idol of Mary and that is sin. Protestant Christians know it and so do Muslims! Protestant means protest. They came out of the deception in the church. Again the Scriptures you give don't justify Mary worship. You are making very poor inferences that it does. This kind of stuff gives Christians a black eye. I want no part of it.
The Catholic response to the verses you cited is in the link I provided previously.Burninglight wrote:I can't help thinking of poor Joseph. He married Mary to leave her a virgin? No man marry's to leave his wife a virgin that I know of. Even couples that can't have children have sex. Mary had sex with Joseph after Jesus was born; let's call a spade a spade! Joseph had respect to wait until after her pregnancy to come in unto her. She was no virgin when he got done with her unless Joseph was a born a eunuch.
Look at these verses and tell me if you still think she remained virgin:
•Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
•Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
•Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
•Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
•John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
•Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
•1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
•Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
"An initial reading of these biblical texts seems to clear up the issue: Jesus had brothers and sisters. But such obvious scriptures are not without their response from Catholic Theologians. The primary argument against these biblical texts is as follows:
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
•Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
•Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
In both of these verses, if the brothers of Jesus are not brothers, but His cousins, then who is His mother and who is the carpenters father? In other words, mother here refers to Mary. The carpenter in Matt. 13:55, refers to Joseph. These are literal. Yet, the Catholic theologian will then stop there and say, "Though carpenters son refers to Joseph, and mother refers to Mary, brothers does not mean brothers, but "cousins." This does not seem to be a legitimate assertion. You cannot simply switch contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence unless it is obviously required. The context is clear. This verse is speaking of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus brothers. The whole context is of familial relationship: father, mother, and brothers."
Why do Catholics want to believe Mary was a virgin so badly? Is it so they can pray to her because they feel Jesus is not enough???????????????![]()
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Thanks for your response. Are you Catholic? I look at that website link, and they use all inferences to support their view of Mary. Here is one such example: "Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother."ThatGirlAgain wrote:The Catholic response to the verses you cited is in the link I provided previously.Burninglight wrote:I can't help thinking of poor Joseph. He married Mary to leave her a virgin? No man marry's to leave his wife a virgin that I know of. Even couples that can't have children have sex. Mary had sex with Joseph after Jesus was born; let's call a spade a spade! Joseph had respect to wait until after her pregnancy to come in unto her. She was no virgin when he got done with her unless Joseph was a born a eunuch.
Look at these verses and tell me if you still think she remained virgin:
•Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
•Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
•Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
•Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
•John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
•Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
•1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
•Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
"An initial reading of these biblical texts seems to clear up the issue: Jesus had brothers and sisters. But such obvious scriptures are not without their response from Catholic Theologians. The primary argument against these biblical texts is as follows:
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
•Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
•Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
In both of these verses, if the brothers of Jesus are not brothers, but His cousins, then who is His mother and who is the carpenters father? In other words, mother here refers to Mary. The carpenter in Matt. 13:55, refers to Joseph. These are literal. Yet, the Catholic theologian will then stop there and say, "Though carpenters son refers to Joseph, and mother refers to Mary, brothers does not mean brothers, but "cousins." This does not seem to be a legitimate assertion. You cannot simply switch contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence unless it is obviously required. The context is clear. This verse is speaking of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus brothers. The whole context is of familial relationship: father, mother, and brothers."
Why do Catholics want to believe Mary was a virgin so badly? Is it so they can pray to her because they feel Jesus is not enough???????????????![]()
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http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blesse ... _mary.html
The early belief in the virginity of Mary even after giving birth and much of the 'backstory' of Mary can be seen in non-canonical material such as The Infancy Gospel of James. See especially sections 19 and 20. This ties in with the Immaculate Conception of Mary in which Mary is held to have been exempted from Original Sin at the time of her Conception. Part of the punishment of Eve was to suffer the pain of childbirth. Exempting Mary from Original Sin right from the start leads therefore to the idea of a miraculous birth of Jesus.
Here is a painting by William Blake illustrating that idea.
What is aThatGirlAgain wrote:I was raised Catholic but became a........ (read my usergroup list, OK?) by the age of 13. However I know the religion very well and can provide the standard answers plus I believe more than average insight. But actually defend it...not my thing, I am afraid. Maybe a real Catholic like jedicri may care to, assuming they have the time to spare.