I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

Haven

Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #331

Post by Haven »

EduChris wrote: If the sum total of all reality can be reduced to some impersonal admixture of chance & necessity, then objective moral values do not exist; they are instead a powerful illusion that we have adopted due to survival constraints. Similarly, if non-theism is true, then our inner mental conscious life is an illusion--including our sense of volition.
I agree, which is why I hate being a non-theist. I'd much rather believe. However, I remain atheist because of the balance of the evidence against theism and religion and in favor of a godless universe. Because of this, I've been forced to abandon moral realism.
If moral accountability, volition, and consciousness are all illusory,
Why would volition and consciousness be illusory if there are no gods? It's obvious that consciousness exists.
But can we live our daily lives actually believing that all of these things--the most real things we can ever know or experience--are illusory? I doubt it.
I agree. I certainly couldn't make it through my day if I practiced my belief that moral values and duties are illusory. In fact, even the most ardent atheists frequently appeal to objective moral values, especially when they're criticizing theistic morality. For example, take a look at the "God and Genocide" thread on this forum .
That is why theism is the most rational viewpoint--it allows us to expect that our inner mental conscious life is real and genuine, and in turn this allows us to have at least some degree of initial confidence in the other judgments that we routinely make in our daily lives.
I fail to see how human moral instincts, which evolved through millions of years of biological and thousands of years of social evolution, require theism. Yes, our moral viewpoints are absurd given the meaninglessness of existence, but they don't necessarily point toward the existence of a God(s).

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Re: God is real

Post #332

Post by Burninglight »

Haven wrote:
His Name Is John wrote: Why are these three constants not found in the animal world?
They are. Animals -- at least sentient ones -- don't rape or kill each other, and those that live in communities don't steal from each other.
Sexual issues of rape among people is not applicable in the animal world nor is stealing. A dog can be trained not to take food off the table, but it would have no way to know that it is wrong to fill its stomach. In the wild animals are looking to get food and don't care how they get it they have even eaten there own litter, but they do have instinct for survival. It haThey have nothing to do with reason and morailty. People were made in God's image not animals

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #333

Post by EduChris »

Haven wrote:...I remain atheist because of the balance of the evidence against theism and religion and in favor of a godless universe...
I've been around this forum a long time, and I've yet to see any "evidence against theism...and in favor of a godless universe." How does one go about gathering "evidence" for or against metaphysical realities? Metaphysics can only de discussed and weighed according to logical, philosophical analysis--and this sort of logical analysis can only be genuinely available within a theistic metaphysical framework.

Haven wrote:...Why would volition and consciousness be illusory if there are no gods?...
Is volition an actual causal mechanism in its own right? Or is volition simply an after-the-fact illusion which masks the prior outworking of pure chance and/or necessity? Is it possible to live our daily lives as though the latter were true? I can't imagine how I could ever believe such a thing (as a practical matter).

Haven wrote:...Yes, our moral viewpoints are absurd given the meaninglessness of existence, but they don't necessarily point toward the existence of a God(s).
I'm not talking only about moral accountability; rather, I'm talking about our entire inner mental thought life, which can only be illusory (given a non-theistic framework). But since we can't actually live as though our inner mental thought life is illusory, and since there cannot be--even in principle--any empirical evidence for or against theism, it follows that theism is the preferred rational option. Theism alone lends the hope of authenticity to our inner mental thought life.

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Re: God is real

Post #334

Post by Artie »

His Name Is John wrote:
Artie wrote:Cooperating organisms have a better chance of survival. Cooperation produces a common code of behavior called morals. These morals were written out by men as in the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule in religions, or in the judicial system in the form of laws.
Then why is it in not one society in the history of humanity has rape, murder and stealing not been condemned?

Why are these three constants not found in the animal world?
I am not quite sure what you are asking but here is a little list of animal altruism illustrating what I mean:

"Dogs often adopt orphaned cats, squirrels, ducks and even tigers.
Dolphins support sick or injured animals, swimming under them for hours at a time and pushing them to the surface so they can breathe.
Mongooses support elderly, sick, or injured animals
Wolves and wild dogs bring meat back to members of the pack not present at the kill.
Male baboons threaten predators and cover the rear as the troop retreats.
Gibbons and chimpanzees with food will, in response to a gesture, share their food with others of the group.
Chimpanzees will help humans and conspecifics without any reward in return.
Bonobos have been observed aiding injured or handicapped bonobos.
Vampire bats commonly regurgitate blood to share with unlucky or sick roost mates that have been unable to find a meal, often forming a buddy system.
Raccoons inform conspecifics about feeding grounds by droppings left on commonly shared latrines. A similar information system has been observed to be used by common ravens.
In numerous bird species, a breeding pair receives support in raising its young from other "helper" birds, including help with the feeding of its fledglings. Some will even go as far as protecting an unrelated bird's young from predators
Most mammal carnivores like wolves or dogs have a habit of not harming pack members below certain age, of opposite sex or in surrendering position (in case of some animals, the behavior exists within entire species rather than one pack).
Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked.
Walruses have been seen adopting orphans who lost their parents to predators.
Some termites and ants release a sticky secretion by fatally rupturing a specialized gland. This autothysis altruistically aids the colony at the expense of the individual insect. For example, defending against invading ants by creating a tar baby effect.
Meerkats often have one standing guard to warn whilst the rest feed in case of predator attack.
African buffalo will rescue a member of the herd captured by predators.
Lemurs of all ages and of both sexes will take care of infants unrelated to them."

Wikipedia

A few examples showing how morals evolved.

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Re: God is real

Post #335

Post by Artie »

Burninglight wrote:...God has been there before theists and wrote His laws on the hearts of all human beings but not on animals. Even the animals are held accountable if they, for instance, hurt or kill a person. They some how instinctly know they will suffer for it and fear us, but they have no reasoning ability such as people into the deeper things of morality that are God given. All people know God exists.
Don't you mean Christians know God exists, Muslims know Allah exists, Hindus know Brahman exists and so forth?

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Re: God is real

Post #336

Post by Goat »

Burninglight wrote:WLC wrote:
Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists


I agree. The Bible states that God has written His laws on the hearts of all man. That is where our common sense of right and wrong come from. Everyone knows, for instance, that adultery, murder and stealing are wrong. Where does that moral knowledge come from?
I want you to show me that the two premsis are true.

First , show me that 'objective moral values and duties exit'.
Next, show me that 'Objective moral values and duties are dependent on God existing.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: God is real

Post #337

Post by Goat »

Burninglight wrote:
Haven wrote:
His Name Is John wrote: Why are these three constants not found in the animal world?
They are. Animals -- at least sentient ones -- don't rape or kill each other, and those that live in communities don't steal from each other.
Sexual issues of rape among people is not applicable in the animal world nor is stealing. A dog can be trained not to take food off the table, but it would have no way to know that it is wrong to fill its stomach. In the wild animals are looking to get food and don't care how they get it they have even eaten there own litter, but they do have instinct for survival. It haThey have nothing to do with reason and morailty. People were made in God's image not animals

This seems to have a great deal of ignorance about the behavior of animals in the wild.

And, I would love you to show me, other than some religious promotional materials, that 'People were made in God's image' not animals. Do you have something other than rhetoric in the bible?

Can you show me this is a true an accurate statement?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: God is real

Post #338

Post by McCulloch »

Burninglight wrote: I agree. The Bible states that God has written His laws on the hearts of all man. That is where our common sense of right and wrong come from. Everyone knows, for instance, that adultery, murder and stealing are wrong. Where does that moral knowledge come from?
Yes, where does that moral knowledge come from? Why conclude that there must be a supernatural source? Some things make sense, therefore there must be a God? Is that the argument?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Re: God is real

Post #339

Post by olavisjo »

Goat wrote: First , show me that 'objective moral values and duties exit'.
Next, show me that 'Objective moral values and duties are dependent on God existing.
I am sad that after all this time, you would still ask.

Is it not true that the Germans in 1930-45 should have treated the Jewish people with respect and even love and not hate?
Is there anything in the natural world that tells us that we must love one another?
Is there anything in the natural world to compel us to feel empathy to others?
No, only the supernatural can require this of us.
And since all decent people feel compelled to obey this imperative, then there must be a supernatural that compels it, or else the decent people are delusional and the Bundys and Hitlers are the rational ones.

No one is going to "show you", it is up to you, you decide...
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

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Re: God is real

Post #340

Post by Artie »

olavisjo wrote:
Goat wrote: First , show me that 'objective moral values and duties exit'.
Next, show me that 'Objective moral values and duties are dependent on God existing.
I am sad that after all this time, you would still ask.

Is it not true that the Germans in 1930-45 should have treated the Jewish people with respect and even love and not hate?
Is there anything in the natural world that tells us that we must love one another?
Is there anything in the natural world to compel us to feel empathy to others?
You did read the list about animal altruism several have posted in this thread right?

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