I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

1robin
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #371

Post by 1robin »

Artie wrote:
1robin wrote:There are many ways to test intelligence, but I would leave the details up to someone who was qualified in that field. With or without a test the obvious disparity of intelligence in comparison between humans and the next smartest being is so vast that I can't imagine how evolution could account for it.
But you see, we can't base our evaluation of whether something is true or not on whether you can imagine it or not. You have to provide us with evidence showing this disparity to be vast.
The imagine statement is not intended to establish truth or not, it is simply my opinion. Evolution is not true because I didn't prove it false. I made no absolute claim of it's truthfullness that would need to be supported. In a high percentage of topics related to science or religion evidence is inconclusive and so what the evidence suggests (not proves) is usefull.

PGA
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #372

Post by PGA »

Hi Haven,

I loved your original post - well expressed and the points you are getting at were missed in the responses on the first two pages of the debate, IMO.

I have only read the first two pages of this debate so my thoughts have probably been echoed and someone may have given you something that you feel is valuable in solidifying your position on atheism but, IMO, you hit the nail on the head in your first post.

Unless there is an objective, absolute, unchanging standard that is God morality cannot be made sense. That has always been a strong argument for God, and not just any god. Most people believe there are objective moral values that we all share. Just try cutting in line on someone who objects to an objective standard. All but the most hardened have a sense of right and wrong.

I notice everyone banters around qualitative words or statements such as 'good,' 'bad', 'evil', 'right', 'wrong', 'Hitler was evil' or Hitler was good' or judge Hitler's Germany or Hitler's character but, without an objective 'best' to compare goodness or rightness to what do the terms mean, what does goodness mean? Who gets to decide? Why is their definition the 'one' that 'should/must/ought' be followed? The point is when we imply good we are measuring it against an ideal best or goodness has no meaning and thus can mean anything. Logically it can't mean two different things at the same time and in the same sense. When one culture or cultural group says abortion is wrong and another says it is right then which group is actually true to what is right, what is good? They can't both be. It doesn't make sense.

For the Christian world-view this sense of right and wrong is put there by God in that we are created in His image and likeness and the Fall explains why our sense of morality has been marred and relativised. We have blurred the blueprint for morality, forgotten/ignored the Source in our effort to be our own little gods. For the atheist it 'evolves' from mindless, purposeless, impersonal matter. Go make sense of that.


As Kenneth Samples put it in 'Without a Doubt' (p.25) in viewing the atheistic/naturalistic model, we have what is coming from nothing or what is not, 'life from non-life, persons from the impersonal, minds from the mindless, order from the orderless, reason from the irrational, morality from the non-moral/amoral, information without a sender, code from a non-programmer, truth from and accident' and I might add laws from chaos/ uniformity of nature from chaos.

These problems he lists all desire an answer and God is the only answer that I have seen that can make sense of any of them for in all we witness as human beings we see being coming from being/the living, or as Samples puts it 'life from ultimate Life, person from the Superpersonal, minds from the ultimate mind, order from the ordered, reason from a rational Being, morality from a moral Person, information from a Sender, code from a personal Programmer, truth from the ultimate Truth.' (p. 25)

In my sense of reasoning I don't see much of evolutionary science as being something that can be scientifically verified by repeated experiments. It starts with a presupposition since no one was there to witness it. A rock does not come stamped with the date on it. If you start with an atheistic world-view you are going to funnel all the evidence through the eyes of an atheistic world-view. If that wasn't the case you would not hold to that world-view.

Artie
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #373

Post by Artie »

1robin wrote:The imagine statement is not intended to establish truth or not, it is simply my opinion. Evolution is not true because I didn't prove it false. I made no absolute claim of it's truthfullness that would need to be supported.
You have made a claim that there is great disparity between animal and human intelligence which in your opinion evolution can't explain. You have to support this claim with evidence.

1robin
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #374

Post by 1robin »

Artie wrote:
1robin wrote:The imagine statement is not intended to establish truth or not, it is simply my opinion. Evolution is not true because I didn't prove it false. I made no absolute claim of it's truthfullness that would need to be supported.
You have made a claim that there is great disparity between animal and human intelligence which in your opinion evolution can't explain. You have to support this claim with evidence.
No I don't. However if I ever get more than 5 minutes of free time I will consider giving you a why for my opinion.

1robin
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #375

Post by 1robin »

Goat wrote:
1robin wrote:
Artie wrote:
1robin wrote:I think I finally understand why you said things the way you did but it still strikes me as if you are making the point that God is evil which would quite a different conversation. Your facts about Satin are not quite right according to the bible Satin is responsible for leading 100s of millions of people who ejected God into eternal damnation but like I said this is a huge seperate subject. I however do appreciate your comments. What did you think of the disparity of intelligence point I made.
How would you measure and evaluate animal and human intelligence for a comparison?

There are many ways to test intelligence, but I would leave the details up to someone who was qualified in that field. With or without a test the obvious disparity of intelligence in comparison between humans and the next smartest being is so vast that I can't imagine how evolution could account for it.
Ah yes, the argument from personal incredulity. "I can't imagine xxxxxx therefore God'.
Those are the two systems I was considering and what was being discussed here so if some evidence supports one theory (for lack of a better word) but not the other in my opinion then (its supports it but I never said proves it.)

1robin
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #376

Post by 1robin »

Goat wrote:
1robin wrote:
Artie wrote:
1robin wrote:I think I finally understand why you said things the way you did but it still strikes me as if you are making the point that God is evil which would quite a different conversation. Your facts about Satin are not quite right according to the bible Satin is responsible for leading 100s of millions of people who ejected God into eternal damnation but like I said this is a huge seperate subject. I however do appreciate your comments. What did you think of the disparity of intelligence point I made.
How would you measure and evaluate animal and human intelligence for a comparison?
There are many ways to test intelligence, but I would leave the details up to someone who was qualified in that field. With or without a test the obvious disparity of intelligence in comparison between humans and the next smartest being is so vast that I can't imagine how evolution could account for it.
Ah yes, the argument from personal incredulity. "I can't imagine xxxxxx therefore God'.
Ignore this it was a mistake (maybe that human intelligence gap isn't as large for me as I thought).

Haven

Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #377

Post by Haven »

PGA wrote:Hi Haven,

I loved your original post - well expressed and the points you are getting at were missed in the responses on the first two pages of the debate, IMO.
Thanks! Welcome to the forum! :) :)
I have only read the first two pages of this debate so my thoughts have probably been echoed and someone may have given you something that you feel is valuable in solidifying your position on atheism but, IMO, you hit the nail on the head in your first post.

Unless there is an objective, absolute, unchanging standard that is God morality cannot be made sense. That has always been a strong argument for God, and not just any god. Most people believe there are objective moral values that we all share. Just try cutting in line on someone who objects to an objective standard. All but the most hardened have a sense of right and wrong.
I agree, however, I have rejected objective morality because of the lack of evidence for gods and the lack of evidence for objective morals themselves. I'm now a moral non-cognitivist, meaning that I view moral statements not as truth propositions but as statements of feeling, esthetic, and preference. That doesn't mean I have no sense of right or wrong (I certainly do), that just means that my moral senses are feelings, not facts.

PGA
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #378

Post by PGA »

Hi Haven,

Thanks for engaging!
Unless there is an objective, absolute, unchanging standard that is God morality cannot be made sense. That has always been a strong argument for God, and not just any god. Most people believe there are objective moral values that we all share. Just try cutting in line on someone who objects to an objective standard. All but the most hardened have a sense of right and wrong. -Me
I agree, however, I have rejected objective morality because of the lack of evidence for gods and the lack of evidence for objective morals themselves. I'm now a moral non-cognitivist, meaning that I view moral statements not as truth propositions but as statements of feeling, esthetic, and preference. That doesn't mean I have no sense of right or wrong (I certainly do), that just means that my moral senses are feelings, not facts. -Haven
I agree, there is a lack of evidence for gods. When I speak of God I have a specific deity in mind - the God revealed in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures.

Since you reject objective moral absolutes any definition of good is defensible. However, if you or your cultural group do not hold the might in any situation then what you believe as good is not the acceptable norm and you are deemed wrong. The norm is might makes right and you see it all over the world in one nation flexing its muscles over another. But more to the question is when we say something is good we hold it to a standard, an ideal - the ideal best, the ultimate measure. How can there be more than one best? 'Best' implies no better. For subjective humanity there is no such thing, as you have stated, so how can anything be good? You have lost the definition of good in your subjectivity. Now you and I both see the problem in this. Meaning is nothing more than forcing your will, your preference on another and Hitler's preferences are no better than Mother Teresa's in the big picture. Anything is justifiable. But most people would probably choose Mother Teresa over Hitler as the more moral person and more preferable person to live with.

Let me use the argument in my eyes from your perspective and you can tell me how far off I am.

For you there is no such thing as something that is truly good. You just make whatever you feel/prefer to be good good. Why complain when someone decides that your wallet is really their property and they are going to use whatever means necessary to get it, it is just the way things are. What you are admitting is that the definition of goodness changes like a chameleon through the ages and cultures.

Yet most people around the world have an innate sense that taking another persons wallet because they want it is wrong/bad. Most people around the world realize that murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong/bad. These seem to be universals, applicable in every culture. If all we are is a pile of biological chemical reactions why do we have these apparent universal values? How do morals come from inorganic matter without conscious? Where do you ever see this happening? The reason I ask the last question is because it shows that the atheist presupposes what they believe as much and more of than the Christian does. I personally feel there is more justifiable evidence for Christianity than atheism.

Logically how can something that is good at the same time and in the same manner be bad? The meaning of the word ceases to make sense if any definition of goodness is the correct one.

As I have contended many times in other debate forums, God, the necessary, unchanging, objective being is the only reason that anything ultimately can be made sense of.

Artie
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #379

Post by Artie »

PGA wrote:I agree, there is a lack of evidence for gods. When I speak of God I have a specific deity in mind - the God revealed in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures.
Hello PGA. There is also a lack of evidence for the Christian God as there is for every other god.
Yet most people around the world have an innate sense that taking another persons wallet because they want it is wrong/bad. Most people around the world realize that murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong/bad. These seem to be universals, applicable in every culture. If all we are is a pile of biological chemical reactions why do we have these apparent universal values? How do morals come from inorganic matter without conscious? Where do you ever see this happening?
We see it everywhere. Organisms started cooperating. Cooperating organisms survived better because they cooperated. Cooperation automatically developed a common code of behavior called morals. You can see this everywhere in the animal world. Mongooses support elderly, sick, or injured animals, bonobos have been observed aiding injured or handicapped bonobos, Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked, African buffalo will rescue a member of the herd captured by predators and on and on and on.

When humans evolved we formulated these moral codes into words like the Ten Commandments or the Golden Rule and integrated them into religions or made them into laws and integrated them into justice systems. Of course an objective morality is logically impossible. Where would it come from? It obviously couldn't come from God because it would be His subjective morality.

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Post #380

Post by olavisjo »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Depends on what one requires out of "must". That the animal sat there and adopted (or kidnapped) another animal indicates the 'adoptor' has a "must", whether we recognize it or not.

For the following, let's note...

1- The video header says this is in Saudi Arabia
2- The narrator mentions "...here in Taif..."

So, in confirming the location we can refer to...
Reading your post, it occurred to me that when we are talking about the moral argument, we may be talking about two entirely different things. This is not unusual as there are several such arguments.
Before I respond to your post, I would like you to explain to me what the moral argument in the OP means to you and why you think that Christians believe it is evidence for God. Otherwise we may be speaking at cross purposes.
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

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