I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #381

Post by olavisjo »

Artie wrote: When humans evolved we formulated these moral codes into words like the Ten Commandments or the Golden Rule and integrated them into religions or made them into laws and integrated them into justice systems. Of course an objective morality is logically impossible.
So, are trying to tell us that when a man kidnaps, rapes, tortures and kills a twelve year old girl, he has done nothing objectively wrong, he only violates our words. And if he does it undetected, he does not even violate our words, laws and justice systems.
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #382

Post by Artie »

olavisjo wrote:
Artie wrote: When humans evolved we formulated these moral codes into words like the Ten Commandments or the Golden Rule and integrated them into religions or made them into laws and integrated them into justice systems. Of course an objective morality is logically impossible.
So, are trying to tell us that when a man kidnaps, rapes, tortures and kills a twelve year old girl, he has done nothing objectively wrong, he only violates our words. And if he does it undetected, he does not even violate our words, laws and justice systems.
We use logic, reason and common sense and our understanding of how moral codes developed and ethics and upbringing and our conscience and the law of the land and social contracts to guide our moral behavior. What he does violates most if not all of these. Therefore his actions are immoral. It has nothing to do with whether he is detected or not.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #383

Post by olavisjo »

Artie wrote:Therefore his actions are immoral.
Is that according to you or to him? He is absolutely fine with his actions, and he thinks you should just myob.
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #384

Post by Artie »

olavisjo wrote:
Artie wrote:Therefore his actions are immoral.
Is that according to you or to him? He is absolutely fine with his actions, and he thinks you should just myob.
It is according to "logic, reason and common sense and our understanding of how moral codes developed and ethics and the law of the land and social contracts". That he doesn't understand or choose to ignore how and why moral codes developed, ethics, the law of the land or its social contracts has nothing to do with my opinion.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #385

Post by 1robin »

Artie wrote:
olavisjo wrote:
Artie wrote: When humans evolved we formulated these moral codes into words like the Ten Commandments or the Golden Rule and integrated them into religions or made them into laws and integrated them into justice systems. Of course an objective morality is logically impossible.
So, are trying to tell us that when a man kidnaps, rapes, tortures and kills a twelve year old girl, he has done nothing objectively wrong, he only violates our words. And if he does it undetected, he does not even violate our words, laws and justice systems.
We use logic, reason and common sense and our understanding of how moral codes developed and ethics and upbringing and our conscience and the law of the land and social contracts to guide our moral behavior. What he does violates most if not all of these. Therefore his actions are immoral. It has nothing to do with whether he is detected or not.
Well suppose that a much more powerful organization has a completely different take and considers your judgement to be morally repugnant and the the man aboves actions as acceptable. What could you appeal to to settle the problem.

If modern society actually did have a moral framework that followed strict evolutionary logic (God help us). Then what would you appeal to when the government comes to take you to a clinic to inject you with various experimental drugs. Because within an evolutionary only moral paradigm there would be nothing wrong with torturing a person to gain knowledge to help the masses. In evolution there is no sanctity of life. Humans are no more important than house flies. There is nothing evolutionarily speaking with euthenising the weak and old because that would preserve the vitality of the strong.
Last edited by 1robin on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #386

Post by olavisjo »

Artie wrote:That he doesn't understand or choose to ignore how and why moral codes developed, ethics, the law of the land or its social contracts has nothing to do with my opinion.
If it does not come from your opinion, then where does this sacred cow come from? And what makes it sacred in the first place.
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

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Post #387

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 381:
olavisjo wrote: So, are trying to tell us that when a man kidnaps, rapes, tortures and kills a twelve year old girl, he has done nothing objectively wrong, he only violates our words. And if he does it undetected, he does not even violate our words, laws and justice systems.
Ask the one being all kidnappy.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Post #388

Post by olavisjo »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Ask the one being all kidnappy.
Like I said, he has no problem with it, so why should anyone else have a problem with it if the girl means nothing to them?
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #389

Post by Artie »

1robin wrote:
Artie wrote:
olavisjo wrote:
Artie wrote: When humans evolved we formulated these moral codes into words like the Ten Commandments or the Golden Rule and integrated them into religions or made them into laws and integrated them into justice systems. Of course an objective morality is logically impossible.
So, are trying to tell us that when a man kidnaps, rapes, tortures and kills a twelve year old girl, he has done nothing objectively wrong, he only violates our words. And if he does it undetected, he does not even violate our words, laws and justice systems.
We use logic, reason and common sense and our understanding of how moral codes developed and ethics and upbringing and our conscience and the law of the land and social contracts to guide our moral behavior. What he does violates most if not all of these. Therefore his actions are immoral. It has nothing to do with whether he is detected or not.
Well suppose that a much more powerful organization has a completely different take and considers your judgement
It is not my judgment of course. It is ethics, the law of the land and it's social contracts this organization must answer to and not my "judgment". "What could you appeal to to settle the problem." I would of course appeal to ethics, the law of the land and it's social contracts.
If modern society actually did have a moral framework that followed strict evolutionary logic (God help us). Then what would you appeal to when the government comes to take you to a clinic to inject you with various experimental drugs.
Ehh... what an illogical statement. You do realize that a government that uses logic, reason and common sense and understand how and why moral codes developed and why they should be followed and understand ethics and the law of the land and social contracts would never do such a thing in the first place, right?
Because within an evolutionary only moral paradigm there would be nothing wrong with torturing a person to gain knowledge to help the masses. In evolution there is no sanctity of life.
Is that meant as a joke? Evolution is a mechanism that helps as much life as possible to survive not the other way around.
There is nothing evolutionarily speaking with euthenising the weak and old because that would preserve the vitality of the strong.
Did you miss my earlier post where I said "Mongooses support elderly, sick, or injured animals"? This moral behavior developed because there is more to gain than to lose by supporting elderly, sick or injured animals. What gains the individual gains the society, and vice versa.

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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #390

Post by Artie »

olavisjo wrote:
Artie wrote:That he doesn't understand or choose to ignore how and why moral codes developed, ethics, the law of the land or its social contracts has nothing to do with my opinion.
If it does not come from your opinion, then where does this sacred cow come from? And what makes it sacred in the first place.
It comes from the knowledge we have of evolution of course. Could you go back to my post 379 and read or shall I copy it here? It would just take up unnecessary space. I don't quite get your reference to sacred cow though. Are you saying that since the slaughter of cows are considered immoral in some regions of the world but not in the western world that those morals are subjective and differ with location? I haven't studied why Hindus for example consider it sacred.
Last edited by Artie on Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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