Is the foreskin God's mistake?

[Jax Agnesson]

If it wasn't a mistake, why is it important to snip it off?

[bluethread]

If Christians can decide who is and who is not a Christian, then Jews can decide who is and who is not a Jew. If living like a Jew is important ..... but not important enough to convince one to actually convert to Judaism, then one can adopt the title of Noachide.

.

Well, it appears that christains can not, or I should say do not seem to be able to, decide who is and who is not. There various threads to that effect.

For one to convert, must one do so rabbinically, IYO. If so, which rabbinic procedures are acceptable? The Scriptures are very sparce with specifics. That being the case, what do you think the "ethos" of Moshe refers to?

[Suluby]

If Christians can decide who is and who is not a Christian, then Jews can decide who is and who is not a Jew. If living like a Jew is important ..... but not important enough to convince one to actually convert to Judaism, then one can adopt the title of Noachide.
.

Well, it appears that christains can not, or I should say do not seem to be able to, decide who is and who is not. There various threads to that effect.

For one to convert, must one do so rabbinically, IYO. If so, which rabbinic procedures are acceptable? The Scriptures are very sparce with specifics. That being the case, what do you think the "ethos" of Moshe refers to?

I didn't say that any one Christian speaks for all of Christendom! Each Christian seems to have slightly different standards of who is a "real" "true" Christian ..... and each denomination manages to un-include all the other thousands of denominations!

It's a funny thing - funny peculiar, not funny haha - that among ourselves, we have a saying that if you put 5 Jews in a room, they would emerge with 6 or 7, or maybe 8 opinions. BUT there is complete agreement in the 3 main streams of Judaism that one cannot just call themselves a Jew and expect to be accepted by other Jews. One must either be born of a Jewish mother or convert. One must, so to speak, walk the walk not just talk the talk.

In Conservative Judaism, most Rabbis will do a conversion in cooperation with Orthodox rabbis, with the ger appearing before a Beit Din and then immersing themselves in a mikvah to complete the conversion. This is done to prevent any problems if that person later makes aliyah to Israel.

The Tanakh is 'sparse' on details in many things. That is why we have the Oral Torah ..... to 'flesh' out the details. That is, IMO, the "ethos of Moses." Mosaic law ..... and the explanations of how those laws are to be observed. It is how we have managed to preserve our religion, our scripture and our traditions for more than 4000 years.

The Oral Torah existed for thousands of years, being refined by each generation of sages (hermeneutics) before the process of codification was begun, and it was in 200 CE that the Mishnah was redacted.

There is very little on can do to fully observe the Law without the explanation and guidance of the Talmud for the specifics. Conversion is one of those things not fully explained in the Torah, even though we have the story of Ruth to tell us that converts are accepted and their descendants are just as Jewish as any other Jew.


.

[bluethread]

Well, it appears that christains can not, or I should say do not seem to be able to, decide who is and who is not. There various threads to that effect.

For one to convert, must one do so rabbinically, IYO. If so, which rabbinic procedures are acceptable? The Scriptures are very sparce with specifics. That being the case, what do you think the "ethos" of Moshe refers to?

I didn't say that any one Christian speaks for all of Christendom! Each Christian seems to have slightly different standards of who is a "real" "true" Christian ..... and each denomination manages to un-include all the other thousands of denominations!

It's a funny thing - funny peculiar, not funny haha - that among ourselves, we have a saying that if you put 5 Jews in a room, they would emerge with 6 or 7, or maybe 8 opinions. BUT there is complete agreement in the 3 main streams of Judaism that one cannot just call themselves a Jew and expect to be accepted by other Jews. One must either be born of a Jewish mother or convert. One must, so to speak, walk the walk not just talk the talk.

Well, if your argument is about who can be part of a club, yes the membership gets to decide that. However, when it comes to who the people of Adonai are, that is really up to Adonai.

In Conservative Judaism, most Rabbis will do a conversion in cooperation with Orthodox rabbis, with the ger appearing before a Beit Din and then immersing themselves in a mikvah to complete the conversion. This is done to prevent any problems if that person later makes aliyah to Israel.

The Tanakh is 'sparse' on details in many things. That is why we have the Oral Torah ..... to 'flesh' out the details. That is, IMO, the "ethos of Moses." Mosaic law ..... and the explanations of how those laws are to be observed. It is how we have managed to preserve our religion, our scripture and our traditions for more than 4000 years.

The Oral Torah existed for thousands of years, being refined by each generation of sages (hermeneutics) before the process of codification was begun, and it was in 200 CE that the Mishnah was redacted.

There is very little on can do to fully observe the Law without the explanation and guidance of the Talmud for the specifics. Conversion is one of those things not fully explained in the Torah, even though we have the story of Ruth to tell us that converts are accepted and their descendants are just as Jewish as any other Jew.
.

That is my understanding also and what I believe is being refered to in Acts 15 when it speaks of "circumcised after the manner of Moses". I believe it is this that Paul is objecting to when it comes to salvation. I do not think that He would object to people being encouraged to do these things, but it is not enough to exclude one from Adonai's kingdom. Since it would be surprising for a follower of Yeshua to pass an Orthodox Beit Din, such an one is put into a rather difficult dilemma, if that is what is required to be considered one of Adonai's people. I think that was the MO of The Circumcision. It was a method designed to emmasculate the Shul of Yeshua, if you will pardon the pun. However, to be fair, the pun is not mine. It is what I think Paul was trying to say when he said, (Gal. 5:12) "I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!"

[Suluby]

Well, it appears that christains can not, or I should say do not seem to be able to, decide who is and who is not. There various threads to that effect.

For one to convert, must one do so rabbinically, IYO. If so, which rabbinic procedures are acceptable? The Scriptures are very sparce with specifics. That being the case, what do you think the "ethos" of Moshe refers to?

I didn't say that any one Christian speaks for all of Christendom! Each Christian seems to have slightly different standards of who is a "real" "true" Christian ..... and each denomination manages to un-include all the other thousands of denominations!

It's a funny thing - funny peculiar, not funny haha - that among ourselves, we have a saying that if you put 5 Jews in a room, they would emerge with 6 or 7, or maybe 8 opinions. BUT there is complete agreement in the 3 main streams of Judaism that one cannot just call themselves a Jew and expect to be accepted by other Jews. One must either be born of a Jewish mother or convert. One must, so to speak, walk the walk not just talk the talk.

Well, if your argument is about who can be part of a club, yes the membership gets to decide that. However, when it comes to who the people of Adonai are, that is really up to Adonai.

And HaShem gave us the Law. That is the standard I apply. I apply that Law with guidance and wisdom of the sages. Since HaShem has fallen out of the habit of speaking directly to humanity ..... all we have is the Law. And the Law say one has to walk the walk and not just talk the talk to be a Jew.

In Conservative Judaism, most Rabbis will do a conversion in cooperation with Orthodox rabbis, with the ger appearing before a Beit Din and then immersing themselves in a mikvah to complete the conversion. This is done to prevent any problems if that person later makes aliyah to Israel.

The Tanakh is 'sparse' on details in many things. That is why we have the Oral Torah ..... to 'flesh' out the details. That is, IMO, the "ethos of Moses." Mosaic law ..... and the explanations of how those laws are to be observed. It is how we have managed to preserve our religion, our scripture and our traditions for more than 4000 years.

The Oral Torah existed for thousands of years, being refined by each generation of sages (hermeneutics) before the process of codification was begun, and it was in 200 CE that the Mishnah was redacted.

There is very little on can do to fully observe the Law without the explanation and guidance of the Talmud for the specifics. Conversion is one of those things not fully explained in the Torah, even though we have the story of Ruth to tell us that converts are accepted and their descendants are just as Jewish as any other Jew.
.

That is my understanding also and what I believe is being refered to in Acts 15 when it speaks of "circumcised after the manner of Moses". I believe it is this that Paul is objecting to when it comes to salvation. I do not think that He would object to people being encouraged to do these things, but it is not enough to exclude one from Adonai's kingdom. Since it would be surprising for a follower of Yeshua to pass an Orthodox Beit Din, such an one is put into a rather difficult dilemma, if that is what is required to be considered one of Adonai's people. I think that was the MO of The Circumcision. It was a method designed to emmasculate the Shul of Yeshua, if you will pardon the pun. However, to be fair, the pun is not mine. It is what I think Paul was trying to say when he said, (Gal. 5:12) "I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!"

I don't know what Acts 15 says. It is not the scripture of Judaism. It is Christian scripture and does not apply to Judaism.

The is where your (the generic Christian, not you in particular) problems start. HaShem said in Bereshit 17:9-11 .... 9- "G-d further said to Abraham, "As for you, you and your offspring to come throughout the ages shall keep My covenant. 10- Such shall be the covenant between Me and you and your offspring to follow which you shall keep: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11- You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and that shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.

HaShem didn't say anything about circumcision being optional. Paul changed that. Even Jesus said that not a jot or a tittle should be changed, but Paul went ahead and changed it anyway ..... for Christians. But that is of no import for Judaism and for Jews.

How could a procedure, commanded by G-d centuries before Jesus was born, be designed to emasculate people? It certainly didn't emasculate Jews - and it hasn't for centuries and centuries and for millennia and millennia!

If one is a follower of Jesus Christ ..... and believes him to be the only begotten son of G-d and to be G-d ..... then one is a Christian, not a Jew. That one has placed the god of another religion before G-d; between him/herself and G-d.

In Judaism's theology, every human male is the son of G-d and every human female is the daughter of G-d ..... we are all the children of G-d ..... the entire human race. There are no special perquisites &/or privileges for being Jewish. It is an obligation that one accepts. If one does not accept the obligation, one is not Jewish, no matter how much one wants to be or if one just wrongly appropriates the title.

It's like being a doctor ..... you can be knowledgeable enough to think you are a doctor, but if you haven't gone to medical school and passed your boards, you aren't a doctor.


.

[bluethread]

Well, if your argument is about who can be part of a club, yes the membership gets to decide that. However, when it comes to who the people of Adonai are, that is really up to Adonai.

And HaShem gave us the Law. That is the standard I apply. I apply that Law with guidance and wisdom of the sages. Since HaShem has fallen out of the habit of speaking directly to humanity ..... all we have is the Law. And the Law say one has to walk the walk and not just talk the talk to be a Jew.

Yes, but there appears to be a bit of a difference of opinion on the "oral torah". By the way, do you consider reform jews to not be jews? They do not appear to walk the walk.

That is my understanding also and what I believe is being refered to in Acts 15 when it speaks of "circumcised after the manner of Moses". I believe it is this that Paul is objecting to when it comes to salvation. I do not think that He would object to people being encouraged to do these things, but it is not enough to exclude one from Adonai's kingdom. Since it would be surprising for a follower of Yeshua to pass an Orthodox Beit Din, such an one is put into a rather difficult dilemma, if that is what is required to be considered one of Adonai's people. I think that was the MO of The Circumcision. It was a method designed to emmasculate the Shul of Yeshua, if you will pardon the pun. However, to be fair, the pun is not mine. It is what I think Paul was trying to say when he said, (Gal. 5:12) "I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!"

I don't know what Acts 15 says. It is not the scripture of Judaism. It is Christian scripture and does not apply to Judaism.

I understand that Judaism does not recognize the Apostlic Writings as Scriputure. However, if I am not mistaken not all of Judaism accepts the "Oral Torah" as Scripture either. Even if one does not accept Paul's writings as Scripture, His argument that the nonobservance of "oral torah" does not disallows one from being one of Adonai's people still stands. That argument is supported by the fact that Avram was declared righteous and received the covenant before He was circumcised.

The is where your (the generic Christian, not you in particular) problems start. HaShem said in Bereshit 17:9-11 .... 9- "G-d further said to Abraham, "As for you, you and your offspring to come throughout the ages shall keep My covenant. 10- Such shall be the covenant between Me and you and your offspring to follow which you shall keep: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11- You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and that shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.

HaShem didn't say anything about circumcision being optional. Paul changed that. Even Jesus said that not a jot or a tittle should be changed, but Paul went ahead and changed it anyway ..... for Christians. But that is of no import for Judaism and for Jews.

Yes, I understand that Christianity gets this wrong. However, it is not my postion that Paul is not saying that circumcision as commanded by HaShem in HaTorah is optional. What I beleive he is saying is that circumcision as a means of salvation as taught by The Circumcision(those that require the acceptance of oral torah) is optional.

How could a procedure, commanded by G-d centuries before Jesus was born, be designed to emasculate people? It certainly didn't emasculate Jews - and it hasn't for centuries and centuries and for millennia and millennia!

The requirement that the Shul of Yeshua accept "oral torah" emasculates those Jews because it places a burden on them which HaTorah does not require and which is not truly followed by many, if not most Jews today. As you say, one must walk the walk. That is the message of Yacov Ben Yosef.

If one is a follower of Jesus Christ ..... and believes him to be the only begotten son of G-d and to be G-d ..... then one is a Christian, not a Jew. That one has placed the god of another religion before G-d; between him/herself and G-d.

Now you are expanding the discussion beyond the issue of circumcision. If you wish to discuss this issue, I am happy to do so, but please do not presume RCC doctrine. I do not accept you conclusion regarding what Yeshua was saying when He refers to the only begotten son of G-d.

In Judaism's theology, every human male is the son of G-d and every human female is the daughter of G-d ..... we are all the children of G-d ..... the entire human race. There are no special perquisites &/or privileges for being Jewish. It is an obligation that one accepts. If one does not accept the obligation, one is not Jewish, no matter how much one wants to be or if one just wrongly appropriates the title.

That may be how it is seen by "oral torah". However, there is only one reference that I know of in the Tanach where the concept of sons of El Elyon is found.

Ps 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy . 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand ; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course . 6 I have said , Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise , O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

If you insist that this apply only to the hereditary children of Israel, why dies judaism(not you personally) neglect the nations. I understand your reluctance to accept Yochannan's proclamation:

1 Jn 3:1 See what love the Father has lavished on us in letting us be called God's children! For that is what we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it has not known him. 2 Dear friends, we are God's children now; and it has not yet been made clear what we will become. We do know that when he appears, we will be like him; because we will see him as he really is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him continues purifying himself, since God is pure. 4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah.

However, is this not what you are saying about those who walk the walk?

It's like being a doctor ..... you can be knowledgeable enough to think you are a doctor, but if you haven't gone to medical school and passed your boards, you aren't a doctor.

Ah, but what does HaTorah say regarding Avram? What did he know or do to be found acceptable to HaShem?

[Burninglight]

God doesn't make mistakes!

[otseng]

God doesn't make mistakes!

Moderator Comment

This does not add much value to the debate. You'll need to offer more than this claim. At least offer scriptural passages to back up your claim.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

[Suluby]

Well, if your argument is about who can be part of a club, yes the membership gets to decide that. However, when it comes to who the people of Adonai are, that is really up to Adonai.

And HaShem gave us the Law. That is the standard I apply. I apply that Law with guidance and wisdom of the sages. Since HaShem has fallen out of the habit of speaking directly to humanity ..... all we have is the Law. And the Law say one has to walk the walk and not just talk the talk to be a Jew.

Yes, but there appears to be a bit of a difference of opinion on the "oral torah". By the way, do you consider reform jews to not be jews? They do not appear to walk the walk.

Reform Jews do not worship the god of another religion. They do not worship a human being as a god.

Although I may disagree with some of the Reform understanding of halachah, I cannot deny that they are Jews.

There have always been differences of opinion on the Oral Torah! Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel had strong disagreements generations before the Common Era. 300 of them are recorded in the Talmud. We are not ashamed of the differences of opinion ..... we have recorded them and study them to this very day.

That is my understanding also and what I believe is being refered to in Acts 15 when it speaks of "circumcised after the manner of Moses". I believe it is this that Paul is objecting to when it comes to salvation. I do not think that He would object to people being encouraged to do these things, but it is not enough to exclude one from Adonai's kingdom. Since it would be surprising for a follower of Yeshua to pass an Orthodox Beit Din, such an one is put into a rather difficult dilemma, if that is what is required to be considered one of Adonai's people. I think that was the MO of The Circumcision. It was a method designed to emmasculate the Shul of Yeshua, if you will pardon the pun. However, to be fair, the pun is not mine. It is what I think Paul was trying to say when he said, (Gal. 5:12) "I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!"

I don't know what Acts 15 says. It is not the scripture of Judaism. It is Christian scripture and does not apply to Judaism.

I understand that Judaism does not recognize the Apostlic Writings as Scriputure. However, if I am not mistaken not all of Judaism accepts the "Oral Torah" as Scripture either. Even if one does not accept Paul's writings as Scripture, His argument that the nonobservance of "oral torah" does not disallows one from being one of Adonai's people still stands. That argument is supported by the fact that Avram was declared righteous and received the covenant before He was circumcised.

As far as I know, no Jew accepts the Talmud as scripture. It isn't. It is a compendium of the arguments, discussions & debates of the finest, wisest and most educated minds Judaism produced about Scripture ..... the Tanakh.

If it were true that no one since Abraham has to follow any of Mosaic law ..... then HaShem was wasting His/Her time giving it to us, wasn't S/He? Why would HaShem say that this - the law of circumcision and all the other laws - is the eternal and everlasting covenant that Jews shall observe??

The is where your (the generic Christian, not you in particular) problems start. HaShem said in Bereshit 17:9-11 .... 9- "G-d further said to Abraham, "As for you, you and your offspring to come throughout the ages shall keep My covenant. 10- Such shall be the covenant between Me and you and your offspring to follow which you shall keep: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11- You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and that shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.

HaShem didn't say anything about circumcision being optional. Paul changed that. Even Jesus said that not a jot or a tittle should be changed, but Paul went ahead and changed it anyway ..... for Christians. But that is of no import for Judaism and for Jews.

Yes, I understand that Christianity gets this wrong. However, it is not my postion that Paul is not saying that circumcision as commanded by HaShem in HaTorah is optional. What I beleive he is saying is that circumcision as a means of salvation as taught by The Circumcision(those that require the acceptance of oral torah) is optional.

Salvation - as most understand it and as I presume you are using it - is a Christian term. In Judaism, there is nothing to be saved from. We do not believe that HaShem created a place of eternal torture and heinous torment from which we must be saved. Such focus on the afterlife is part & parcel of Christianity, where belief in the Christian gods will save one from that torture. In Judaism, the focus is on this life ..... the only one we are guaranteed. What will happen after we die is HaShem's business ..... so we leave it to Him/Her.

How could a procedure, commanded by G-d centuries before Jesus was born, be designed to emasculate people? It certainly didn't emasculate Jews - and it hasn't for centuries and centuries and for millennia and millennia!

The requirement that the Shul of Yeshua accept "oral torah" emasculates those Jews because it places a burden on them which HaTorah does not require and which is not truly followed by many, if not most Jews today. As you say, one must walk the walk. That is the message of Yacov Ben Yosef.

If one is a follower of Jesus Christ ..... and believes him to be the only begotten son of G-d and to be G-d ..... then one is a Christian, not a Jew. That one has placed the god of another religion before G-d; between him/herself and G-d.

Now you are expanding the discussion beyond the issue of circumcision. If you wish to discuss this issue, I am happy to do so, but please do not presume RCC doctrine. I do not accept you conclusion regarding what Yeshua was saying when He refers to the only begotten son of G-d.

Thread drift is a grand thing!!

I have been told by numerous Christians that acceptance of Jesus as messiah, the only begotten son of G-d and as G-d (part of the Trinity) incarnate is the normative belief of Christianity ..... and this has come from Christians who utterly reject the idea that Catholics and the entire RCC are "really" Christian! So I am at a loss to understand what part of that you are rejecting.

In Judaism's theology, every human male is the son of G-d and every human female is the daughter of G-d ..... we are all the children of G-d ..... the entire human race. There are no special perquisites &/or privileges for being Jewish. It is an obligation that one accepts. If one does not accept the obligation, one is not Jewish, no matter how much one wants to be or if one just wrongly appropriates the title.

That may be how it is seen by "oral torah". However, there is only one reference that I know of in the Tanach where the concept of sons of El Elyon is found.
Ps 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy . 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand ; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course . 6 I have said , Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise , O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. I know there is a school of thought that teaches that HaShem is the son of another god and has brothers and presumably, a mother. That would make G-d not the Beginning & End - the Alpha & Omega - but just a creation of yet another god. From my research - quick & limited as it is - it seems to be related to Canaanite beliefs. It also seems to stem from a mistranslation of the Septuagint, where "the sons of Israel" was changed into "the angels of G-d" and in some versions, "the sons of G-d." It does seem to be, primarily, a Christian way of thinking.

If you insist that this apply only to the hereditary children of Israel, why dies judaism(not you personally) neglect the nations. I understand your reluctance to accept Yochannan's proclamation:
1 Jn 3:1 See what love the Father has lavished on us in letting us be called God's children! For that is what we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it has not known him. 2 Dear friends, we are God's children now; and it has not yet been made clear what we will become. We do know that when he appears, we will be like him; because we will see him as he really is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him continues purifying himself, since God is pure. 4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah.

However, is this not what you are saying about those who walk the walk?

As a Jew, I do not accept any of the NT as scripture. No one 'needed' Jesus to become a child of G-d ..... we are all born the children of G-d.

It is only in Christian scripture and theology that one is taught that HaShem expects perfection from His/Her children ..... IMO, that makes HaShem much less than omniscient and and far from omnipotent. It means that HaShem created us as perfect beings and that WE had the power to change that. If HaShem thought we would be perfect, why would we be given guidelines on our behavior ..... and be given methods by which to atone and repent when we miss the mark?? And that is what "sin" is in Judaism ..... a missing of the mark. We strive to be the best we can be, but as flawed human beings - the way HaShem created us - we miss that mark, and when we do we repent, we atone and we strive to be better.

No, I don't think that is what I was talking about when I said "walk the walk" ..... that was an entirely different issue.

It's like being a doctor ..... you can be knowledgeable enough to think you are a doctor, but if you haven't gone to medical school and passed your boards, you aren't a doctor.

Ah, but what does HaTorah say regarding Avram? What did he know or do to be found acceptable to HaShem?

WE are not Abraham, are we? HaShem gave us the law and told us to observe that law. S/He said S/He would be our G-d and we would be His/Her people ...... the people of the book ..... the Tanakh - the Law. That is the eternal and everlasting covenant made with us.

Making the Law optional, out-of-date, obsolete, no longer necessary ..... all of that just makes HaShem out to be a liar ..... because if the Law is optional, out-of-date, obsolete and no longer necessary then HaShem lied when S/He said the covenant with the Jewish people is an eternal and everlasting covenant.


.

[Suluby]

God doesn't make mistakes!

Moderator Comment

This does not add much value to the debate. You'll need to offer more than this claim. At least offer scriptural passages to back up your claim.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

Thank you, Otseng.


.

[Burninglight]

God doesn't make mistakes!

Moderator Comment

This does not add much value to the debate. You'll need to offer more than this claim. At least offer scriptural passages to back up your claim.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

I didn't mean to break any rules nor was I debating. I simply answered the question in the title of this thread.