Why worship a "god" that threatens you?

OpiatefortheMasses · Post by **OpiatefortheMasses** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:27 am

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

1robin · Post by **1robin** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:37 pm

Why do most of us love our earthly fathers even though they threaten us quite a bit?

Why would I love or worship a God that knew of the many dangers that present themselves in our lives and not make them and their consequences known to us?

The God who didn't do this would have to be an evil sort of God.

This doesn't seem like a very contentious issue to me.

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:39 pm

1robin wrote: Why do most of us love our earthly fathers even though they threaten us quite a bit?

I don't recall that my father ever threatened to set me on fire if I didn't obey him. Had he done so, I suspect that this would have altered my perception of him somewhat.

1robin wrote: Why would I love or worship a God that knew of the many dangers that present themselves in our lives and not make them and their consequences known to us?

The problem with this is some of the greatest dangers and most dire consequences were set in place by God himself. Should I love a God who is willing to torture a majority of mankind forever?

1robin wrote:The God who didn't do this would have to be an evil sort of God.

A God who mandates original sin and eternal damnation would seem like an evil sort of God to me.

connermt · Post by **connermt** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:21 pm

1robin wrote:Why do most of us love our earthly fathers even though they threaten us quite a bit?

Earthly fathers aren't perfect. God is (at least it's said to be). Making the apples-to-apples comparison between the two is somewhat faulty at best.
And as Meta said, threatening with death is somewhat...off-putting...of an earthly father, much less a perfect devine one.

Morphine · Post by **Morphine** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:53 pm

evangelist wrote:
Morphine wrote:
evangelist wrote:
The one and only Living God has simply told us of our condition and the condition of the world.
He has told us why man is naturally evil now, and why our world is full of sickness and death.
Is it so terrible of Him to tell us the truth?

He originally created everything perfect, and man was to spend all of eternity with Him in Heaven.
But, He created man to have free will ... and we rebelled and refused to go along with Him.
So, now He has arranged to take only some of His creation to be with Him.
It's His ball game ... sorry, He makes the rules.
That's what's happening ... whether you like it or not.

"...why man is naturally evil..." Um. Wouldnt that mean it's all his (God's) fault.
Every attribute we have, both good and bad, can be credited to him.
Since he is the one who created us and knew the outcome (all knowing).
Almighty God did not create robots or dummies ... He created beings with free will.
These beings used their free will to reject God, refuse to obey Him, etc.
And God responded by saying, "Okay, here's My grace, mercy, love, etc. ...
I won't throw all of you in the garbage dump, but I will endeavor to save some of you ...
because My Son desires to have some close and loving companions with Him in Heaven."

Because up to that point, all that God had with Him in Heaven were angels.

This is how Christians see things ... sorry if some of you can't see the Scriptures this way.

No need to apologize. Its not your fault I wasn't "blessed" with your vision.

Don't take that smart remark personally or anything. It was just a joke. But at the same time, it shows how others are apparently at a disadvantage when it comes to getting into heaven and avoiding hell.

Which brings us back to the topic. Why worship such a god that punishes those who are "unable" to see things a particular way. Sure. There are some people who believe in God, yet reject him for whatever reason. But there are also people who don't believe in God because they are unable to. I find it incredibly hard to believe that a being who is more loving than anyone on this planet, would send someone to hell for being mistaken.

Thats not someone I would want to worship. I mean I might worship him anyway. But it would be out of fear.

Morphine · Post by **Morphine** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:58 pm

1robin wrote:Why do most of us love our earthly fathers even though they threaten us quite a bit?

Why would I love or worship a God that knew of the many dangers that present themselves in our lives and not make them and their consequences known to us?

The God who didn't do this would have to be an evil sort of God.

This doesn't seem like a very contentious issue to me.

I don't think our earthly fathers would be consider good or loving fathers if they tortured their children for not following every one of their rules and not repenting after being disobedient.

OpiatefortheMasses · Post by **OpiatefortheMasses** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:58 pm

1robin wrote:Why do most of us love our earthly fathers even though they threaten us quite a bit?

None of them are threatening eternal torture for simply doubting them though. When my parents punished or threatened to punish me when I was misbehaving I would at least have a chance to learn from the mistake and make good by it. You can't do that if you're being eternally tortured in hell.

1robin wrote:Why would I love or worship a God that knew of the many dangers that present themselves in our lives and not make them and their consequences known to us?

You could argue that real life consequences can be learned or taught since their demonstrable unlike hell or sin.

1robin wrote:The God who didn't do this would have to be an evil sort of God.

That depends. Like I said, with real life consequences there's the fact that they can learned or taught. If a parent doesn't teach a child to not touch a hot stove or something to that effect are they evil. I'd say negligent is more applicable.

1robin wrote:This doesn't seem like a very contentious issue to me.

It depends on who you're talking to. Some people would like to believe that the "god" of the bible is a loving "god" and discussions like this tend to make that seem less likely.

KCKID · Post by **KCKID** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:51 pm

OpiatefortheMasses wrote:
1robin wrote:Why do most of us love our earthly fathers even though they threaten us quite a bit?

None of them are threatening eternal torture for simply doubting them though. When my parents punished or threatened to punish me when I was misbehaving I would at least have a chance to learn from the mistake and make good by it. You can't do that if you're being eternally tortured in hell.

1robin wrote:Why would I love or worship a God that knew of the many dangers that present themselves in our lives and not make them and their consequences known to us?
You could argue that real life consequences can be learned or taught since their demonstrable unlike hell or sin.

1robin wrote:The God who didn't do this would have to be an evil sort of God.
That depends. Like I said, with real life consequences there's the fact that they can learned or taught. If a parent doesn't teach a child to not touch a hot stove or something to that effect are they evil. I'd say negligent is more applicable.

1robin wrote:This doesn't seem like a very contentious issue to me.
It depends on who you're talking to. Some people would like to believe that the "god" of the bible is a loving "god" and discussions like this tend to make that seem less likely.

The actual facts surrounding this topic, as I see it anyway, is that 'eternal torture in hell' is a mainstream Christian construct ...perhaps Catholic initially ...and not a 'God' concept per se. So, we must not blame God for something that is not His doing. 'Eternal torture' for the (perceived) 'unrighteous' isn't found in the Bible. Christians are the ones who condemn people to hell. Too many of them, unbelievably, appear to relish in the idea of others being tormented in hot coals. And, it would appear that the comments made by Jesus pertaining to hell had Him using common folklore of the time with which to make specific points to the hypocritical Pharisees. Jesus, as always, was using figurative speech.

Hell is the grave and we will all spend a certain amount of time there when we die. We will know nothing (as per the Bible) so we most certainly will not be tormented or even have any knowledge of being tormented. If the resurrection prediction takes place as per the scriptures, then many will rise from the grave to begin eternal life. As said previously (by me

), the amount of professed Christians that are in complete ignorance about the book they purport to uphold would be enough to sink a battleship.

OpiatefortheMasses · Post by **OpiatefortheMasses** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:44 am

KCKID wrote:The actual facts surrounding this topic, as I see it anyway, is that 'eternal torture in hell' is a mainstream Christian construct ...perhaps Catholic initially ...and not a 'God' concept per se. So, we must not blame God for something that is not His doing. 'Eternal torture' for the (perceived) 'unrighteous' isn't found in the Bible. Christians are the ones who condemn people to hell. Too many of them, unbelievably, appear to relish in the idea of others being tormented in hot coals. And, it would appear that the comments made by Jesus pertaining to hell had Him using common folklore of the time with which to make specific points to the hypocritical Pharisees. Jesus, as always, was using figurative speech.

Hell is the grave and we will all spend a certain amount of time there when we die. We will know nothing (as per the Bible) so we most certainly will not be tormented or even have any knowledge of being tormented. If the resurrection prediction takes place as per the scriptures, then many will rise from the grave to begin eternal life. As said previously (by me ), the amount of professed Christians that are in complete ignorance about the book they purport to uphold would be enough to sink a battleship.

Unfortunately there are just way too many different interpretations of the bible and there's really no way to say what's being interpreted correctly. The nature of "god" and scripture varies from person to person let alone denomination to denomination. A person with a negative outlook on the world may love the classic "fire & brimstone" version of "god" while others may just stick to the "sermon on the mount". Honestly, if there is a "god" out there I'm sure he's shaking his head saying "man, what is up with these people?"

Personally, I think the "eternal torture" version of hell was borrowed from other religions or mythologies. If you look at Tartarus (Greek) or Tuonela (Finnish) among others they seem very similar the mainstream Christian version of hell so it's entirely possible that hell in Christianity is merely an amalgamation of sorts.

evangelist · Post by **evangelist** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:23 am

Morphine wrote: Why worship such a god that punishes those who are "unable" to see things a particular way.
Sure. There are some people who believe in God, yet reject him for whatever reason.
But there are also people who don't believe in God because they are unable to.

Man has no excuse for not clearly seeing God in nature ... and in his conscience (mentioned elsewhere).
After clearly recognizing the reality and existence of God, man is expected to worship Him.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made,
even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful,
but became futile in their thoughts,
and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind,
to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness;
full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death,
not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:05 pm

evangelist wrote:
Morphine wrote: Why worship such a god that punishes those who are "unable" to see things a particular way.
Sure. There are some people who believe in God, yet reject him for whatever reason.
But there are also people who don't believe in God because they are unable to.
Man has no excuse for not clearly seeing God in nature ... and in his conscience (mentioned elsewhere).
After clearly recognizing the reality and existence of God, man is expected to worship Him.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made,
even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful,
but became futile in their thoughts,
and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind,
to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness;
full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death,
not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Well, those bible quotes are the opinion of those who wrote it, but other than an appeal to the authority of the bible, which I do not accept as anything more than the opinion of man, what do you have show 'God is in nature'. That is the logical fallacy of 'begging the question'...

Because you say so, based on an ancient book filled with the opinions of others?? I