Is the Trinity Incompetent?

[Strider324]

Given that this Godhead is averred to be perfect in all ways, and not subject to the human frailties of Alzheimers, ADD, Dementia, or even simple forgetfulness - here is the question for debate:

Why did JC have to reappear to Paul to add anything to his original message?

Why was a further visitation required, some 16 centuries later, to add even MORE to the message for only Joseph Smiths eyes?

Which explanation is more parsimonious with the concept of a Perfect Deity - that Jesus forgot to tell his disciples the complete message, or that Paul and Joseph made them up?

Are there alternate explanations for this lapse in disclosure?

[Euphrates]

You've assumed that God added something to the Gospel when Jesus appeared to Paul. Support that claim.

You've also assumed that Mormons have received revelation from God. Support that claim.

Sorry, but it comes down to this still. You haven't shown that Paul added something to the Gospel. And you haven't shown that God revealed something in addition to the Gospel to Joseph Smith (all you can do is point out that Mormons claim it happened, but that's still a claim, and it happens to be universally rejected by Christendom).

You haven't established enough to have a debate.

[Strider324]

Excuse my ignorance, but how does integrity stand by a false assumption?

The only false assumption I see is your assumption that no one would refuse to worship a deity they found to be evil or otherwise unworthy of worship.

It seems to me a man of integrity, when proven wrong, would admit his mistake and change his tactics? I wouldn't sell my integrity for anything in the world, so it only amuses me to be told I am a man of cheap integrity.

Then correct me if I am wrong - you have asserted that you would worship an evil deity for no other reason than your fear of suffering. You would discard all of your values to worship this Hitler deity if he proved you wrong and showed himself to be God. You would follow his commandments to murder jewish children in order to save your ass, right? That's selling your Integrity cheap in my opinion.

The bottom line is your contention that free will would be lost in the face of a revealed deity is false. Men of good conscience could and would exercise their free will to either accept or reject this deity, consequences be damned. That's the very definition of integrity.

[Moses Yoder]

Excuse my ignorance, but how does integrity stand by a false assumption?

The only false assumption I see is your assumption that no one would refuse to worship a deity they found to be evil or otherwise unworthy of worship.

It seems to me a man of integrity, when proven wrong, would admit his mistake and change his tactics? I wouldn't sell my integrity for anything in the world, so it only amuses me to be told I am a man of cheap integrity.

Then correct me if I am wrong - you have asserted that you would worship an evil deity for no other reason than your fear of suffering. You would discard all of your values to worship this Hitler deity if he proved you wrong and showed himself to be God. You would follow his commandments to murder jewish children in order to save your ass, right? That's selling your Integrity cheap in my opinion.

The bottom line is your contention that free will would be lost in the face of a revealed deity is false. Men of good conscience could and would exercise their free will to either accept or reject this deity, consequences be damned. That's the very definition of integrity.

If the Christian God, written about in the Bible, who is infinitely good, were to fully reveal Himself to mankind, we would all realise that He is good, He is our creator, and He deserves our worship. For you to assume he is evil is a false assumption. If He were to reveal Himself to you it would become instantly evident to you. So to assume He is evil is a false assumption.

To say that Hitler is God is blasphemy. Hitler was an evil man who attemtped to eliminate the Jews, which he did for evil purposes. Instead of allowing these deaths to be for naught, God, who is infinitely good, arranged circumstances in such a way that good came out of Hitler's evil deeds.

If Hitler was God, he would be infinitely good, and thus worthy of my worship. He would not kill innocent people.

It amuses me that you assume all children are innocent when God, who knows everything, knows that if allowed to live some of them will grow up to be worse than Hitler, yet you deem Hitler an evil man and say I am throwing away my integrity if I worship him. I wonder how many Jews would have been grateful if I had bashed Hitler's skull against a rock when he was a two year old. I probably would have been killed for doing that, yet it would have saved 2-1/2 million people or whatever. This is why God committed genocide in the OT; to completely eliminate evil people. If the Jews had followed God's orders to the T, there would probably be peace in the middle east today. If I had killed the people who were going to fly into the Twin Towers or Osama BinLaden when they were two years old, how would that have been a bad thing?

[revelationtestament]

Moses yoder: "I have a couple questions here. You state one must follow all of Jesus' commandments to be a Christian. Does this include, or not include, God's commandments? I distinctly recall God giving commandments, and Jesus claiming to be the son of God. So wouldn't God and Jesus have the same commandments that we must follow in order to be Christians?

So if one must only follow Jesus' commandments, what are those commands? I assume since you consider them to be the difference between going to heaven or an eternity in hell, you would have them all memorized and be following them diligently. Therefore it would be no big effort for you to simply post them here, or PM them to me."

If one does not follow the commandments, it doesn't damn him/her to hell. The Old Testament tells us that the Lord would make a covenant with the Gentiles. Jesus commanded us to repent, and be baptized otherwise we cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. These are the basic commandments. Of course love God, and our fellow man. All the other commandments fall under these basic ones. But these are necessary to be considered Christian IMHO. In order to be like Christ we must learn and do more.

[Prince]

Paul and Joseph Smith were impostors. As the son of man states; If you continue in my teaching you are truly my disciple, then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

Paul only quoted Jesus one time which is a disgrace and Joseph Smith made up his own doctrine.

It is written;

"The one who enter through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.

Open up the gates to let in a nation that is just, one that keeps faith.

The way of the just is smooth; the path of the just is level.

When your judgment dawns upon the earth O Lord, the world's inhabitants learn justice.

In days to come Jacob shall take root, Israel shall sprout and blossom, covering all the world with fruit. Is he to be smitten as his smiter was smitten? or slain as his slayer was slain? Or shall he cling to me for refuge? He must make peace with me; peace shall he make with me! This, then, shall be the expiation of Jacob's guilt, this will remove all of his sin:

The Lords counsel is wonderful and His wisdom is great.
The deaf shall hear the words of a book; And out of gloom and darkness, the eyes of the blind shall see.
They shall keep my name holy; they shall reverence the Holy One of Jacob, and be in awe of the God of Israel.
Those who err in spirit shall acquire understanding, and those who find fault shall receive instruction.
The Lord will be gracious to you when you cry out, as soon as he hears he will answer you. The Lord will give you the bread you need and the water for which you thirst. No longer will your Teacher hide himself, but with your own eyes you shall see your Teacher.

A king will reign justly and princes will rule rightly".


"Anyone who hears my words and has faith in the One who sent me possesses eternal life, he does not come under condemnation but has passed from death to life."

That's the Lord who lives in me and I in Him.The reason I was born and came into this world was to do His will not my own. Anyone who chooses to do His will shall know about this teaching ,namely whether it comes from God or I am simply speaking on my own.

[revelationtestament]

"Paul only quoted Jesus one time which is a disgrace and Joseph Smith made up his own doctrine."

Paul had not really heard Jesus so the Holy Spirit could not bring back to memory any words of Christ. Paul is definitely Paul - his writing is quite unique among the apostles.

Exactly what doctrines of Joseph Smith are you referring to? Maybe baptism for the dead which was mentioned by Paul and practiced by several of the eastern sects of the early church? Maybe polygamy which was practiced by the Jews and recognized by their law? Maybe that man can become gods like was recognized by Jesus who reminded the Jews that their law said they were gods? Maybe Joseph Smith didn't make up these doctrines - maybe the Catholic church lost them for you.