Does free will exist in Heaven?

[Metatron]

I've seen the argument presented many times on this forum that God allows the existence of evil in the world because it is important for man to have free will, otherwise it is argued man would be little better than God's robots. This leads me to wonder how Christians envision Heaven working. So a few questions:


Does free will exist in Heaven?

Is it possible to sin in Heaven and, if so, what happens to the sinner?

If not, how is man not the will-less robots Christians often argue we would be here under similar circumstances?

[Metatron]

I'm not sure that this addressed what I said above. I'm certainly not arguing that the people who make it to heaven would not want to continue following God's will or lose the desire to be with him. What I'm saying is that they would still be human, be capable of human error, and, like even the best of us here on earth, would inevitably sin at some point even if in only minor ways. It is not obvious to me how heaven stays free of sin and how God (who supposedly cannot tolerate anything less than perfection) will be able to tolerate sinful humans in heaven.

I think mistake or error is not itself sin. Sin is to abandon God or be apart from God. Therefore if you in heaven make mistake, but not abandon God, that’s not a problem, in my opinion. This may sound strange but according to Bible, God is also life. If you abandon him you abandon also life and so get death.

Therefore, if people in heaven makes mistake, but don’t want abandon God or his will, he will repent and God will forgive. And then there is no sin. So I believe.

While the idea that God would forgive the mistakes of his followers who repent makes perfect sense to me, to my mind it calls into question the need for the whole Jesus died on the cross for your sins bit. If God is willing to forgive the transgressions of people who legitimately repent, I don't see the need of a redemptive sacrifice since man's redemption could happen by their own actions.

But I believe that peoples, who get to heaven from this life, make no mistakes, because God lives in them and influences so that they avoid mistakes.

It is hard for me to see how God living in and influencing people such that they avoid all mistakes does not count as an abrogation of their free will.

[ttruscott]

...
I'm not sure that this addressed what I said above. I'm certainly not arguing that the people who make it to heaven would not want to continue following God's will or lose the desire to be with him. What I'm saying is that they would still be human, be capable of human error, and, like even the best of us here on earth, would inevitably sin at some point even if in only minor ways. It is not obvious to me how heaven stays free of sin and how God (who supposedly cannot tolerate anything less than perfection) will be able to tolerate sinful humans in heaven.

This only works if humans were synonymous with sinner. That just is not so even in this day and age in which being 'born in sin' is accpted, no on accepts that the new soul, whenever or where ever created is created as or to be a sinner.

Human ≠ sinner. Perfect people without sin and the strength of will to never sin are available and if you are lucky, you will meet one. (...or unlucky, perhaps, )

Peace, Ted

Really? Aside from Jesus (obviously a special case), could you name someone who did not sin even once through out an adult lifetime?

This would seem to fly in the face of pretty standard Christian doctrine concerning our sin nature. Are there actually people out there who do not need Christ's redemptive sacrifice to get into heaven?

Ahhh, have you noticed me being "pretty standard" yet??? I hate the erroneous and disproven concept of our meaningless sin nature...pfft, We, on earth, are sinners liable to damnation for choosing sin, not with just some smarmy inclination to sin that is without consequences.

While I haven't met any of them myself, I do know they are here and at least one is named Michael...not one sin in 6000+ years.

Peace, Ted

[Metatron]

...
I'm not sure that this addressed what I said above. I'm certainly not arguing that the people who make it to heaven would not want to continue following God's will or lose the desire to be with him. What I'm saying is that they would still be human, be capable of human error, and, like even the best of us here on earth, would inevitably sin at some point even if in only minor ways. It is not obvious to me how heaven stays free of sin and how God (who supposedly cannot tolerate anything less than perfection) will be able to tolerate sinful humans in heaven.

This only works if humans were synonymous with sinner. That just is not so even in this day and age in which being 'born in sin' is accpted, no on accepts that the new soul, whenever or where ever created is created as or to be a sinner.

Human ≠ sinner. Perfect people without sin and the strength of will to never sin are available and if you are lucky, you will meet one. (...or unlucky, perhaps, )

Peace, Ted

Really? Aside from Jesus (obviously a special case), could you name someone who did not sin even once through out an adult lifetime?

This would seem to fly in the face of pretty standard Christian doctrine concerning our sin nature. Are there actually people out there who do not need Christ's redemptive sacrifice to get into heaven?

Ahhh, have you noticed me being "pretty standard" yet??? I hate the erroneous and disproven concept of our meaningless sin nature...pfft, We, on earth, are sinners liable to damnation for choosing sin, not with just some smarmy inclination to sin that is without consequences.

I must admit to some confusion with how someone who claims that those people who rejected this one time "free will" offer and are now intrinsically evil and incapable of ever repenting does NOT believe in a corrupted sin nature.

While I haven't met any of them myself, I do know they are here and at least one is named Michael...not one sin in 6000+ years.

Would that be the Archangel Michael? I assumed we were talking about humans not angels.

[1213]

While the idea that God would forgive the mistakes of his followers who repent makes perfect sense to me, to my mind it calls into question the need for the whole Jesus died on the cross for your sins bit. If God is willing to forgive the transgressions of people who legitimately repent, I don't see the need of a redemptive sacrifice since man's redemption could happen by their own actions.

I think God’s forgiveness has never depended really on sacrifice. It has always depended of the regret and of the desire to improve. Sacrifice is only one sign of regret. And probably in some cases it is and was so that if you wouldn’t be ready to sacrifice, you didn’t really regret. Maybe sacrifice was needed for man to show and feel what it really means to regret.

Jesus had right from God to forgive (Luke 5:21-25), when he was on earth, before his death and resurrection. And he gave it also to his disciples (John 20:23).
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Only_God_ ... _sins.html)

Therefore I think Jesus death was not necessary for to forgive sins. Jesus life was needed so that he could teach the way back to God.

It is hard for me to see how God living in and influencing people such that they avoid all mistakes does not count as an abrogation of their free will.

I think, when God lives in someone, it means that God is in person and shows what would be the right choice. That’s how people have right understanding. And when people have right understanding, they want freely to choose that option. So it doesn’t abrogate free will, it only guides peoples to make right decisions, in my opinion.

[Metatron]

While the idea that God would forgive the mistakes of his followers who repent makes perfect sense to me, to my mind it calls into question the need for the whole Jesus died on the cross for your sins bit. If God is willing to forgive the transgressions of people who legitimately repent, I don't see the need of a redemptive sacrifice since man's redemption could happen by their own actions.

I think God’s forgiveness has never depended really on sacrifice. It has always depended of the regret and of the desire to improve. Sacrifice is only one sign of regret. And probably in some cases it is and was so that if you wouldn’t be ready to sacrifice, you didn’t really regret. Maybe sacrifice was needed for man to show and feel what it really means to regret.

Jesus had right from God to forgive (Luke 5:21-25), when he was on earth, before his death and resurrection. And he gave it also to his disciples (John 20:23).
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Only_God_ ... _sins.html)

Therefore I think Jesus death was not necessary for to forgive sins. Jesus life was needed so that he could teach the way back to God.

This is an interesting take on the issue and one that certainly makes more sense to me as a non-theist though I expect that you will have some objections from your fellow theists. The notion that Jesus attempts to lead us to God by teaching and by example rather than by some (for me) bizarre sacrifice of himself to himself to save us from his own wrath does not actually require that Jesus be divine to be effective.

[ttruscott]

...

Ahhh, have you noticed me being "pretty standard" yet??? I hate the erroneous and disproven concept of our meaningless sin nature...pfft, We, on earth, are sinners liable to damnation for choosing sin, not with just some smarmy inclination to sin that is without consequences.

I must admit to some confusion with how someone who claims that those people who rejected this one time "free will" offer and are now intrinsically evil and incapable of ever repenting does NOT believe in a corrupted sin nature.

While I haven't met any of them myself, I do know they are here and at least one is named Michael...not one sin in 6000+ years.

Would that be the Archangel Michael? I assumed we were talking about humans not angels.

Two types of people here on earth: 1) the sinful elect that chose to bow to HIM on their first free will decsion to accept HIS will for them and so can be rehabilitated and reborn and

2) the reprobate who rejected GOD at their first free will decision whether to accept HIS plan or not, and are now intrinsically evil and incapable of ever repenting...so I DO believe in a corrupted sinful nature as implied in my bit: We, on earth, are sinners liable to damnation for choosing sin, but I do reject the current thought that we have a sin nature (as you phrased it) which is modern code for having a propensity to sin but without any of the cost of being sinners, a false doctrine I hate so much.

And yes, angels are people too (just not at this time in a human body), or what would you call a messenger made in GOD's image (like us) who is elect (like us) who has free will (like us)or do you discount their existance too and so take yourself out of that discussion?

[Metatron]

...

Ahhh, have you noticed me being "pretty standard" yet??? I hate the erroneous and disproven concept of our meaningless sin nature...pfft, We, on earth, are sinners liable to damnation for choosing sin, not with just some smarmy inclination to sin that is without consequences.

I must admit to some confusion with how someone who claims that those people who rejected this one time "free will" offer and are now intrinsically evil and incapable of ever repenting does NOT believe in a corrupted sin nature.

While I haven't met any of them myself, I do know they are here and at least one is named Michael...not one sin in 6000+ years.

Would that be the Archangel Michael? I assumed we were talking about humans not angels.

Two types of people here on earth: 1) the sinful elect that chose to bow to HIM on their first free will decsion to accept HIS will for them and so can be rehabilitated and reborn and

2) the reprobate who rejected GOD at their first free will decision whether to accept HIS plan or not, and are now intrinsically evil and incapable of ever repenting...so I DO believe in a corrupted sinful nature as implied in my bit: We, on earth, are sinners liable to damnation for choosing sin, but I do reject the current thought that we have a sin nature (as you phrased it) which is modern code for having a propensity to sin but without any of the cost of being sinners, a false doctrine I hate so much.

And yes, angels are people too (just not at this time in a human body), or what would you call a messenger made in GOD's image (like us) who is elect (like us) who has free will (like us)or do you discount their existance too and so take yourself out of that discussion?

Well whether or not I believe in angels is irrelevant. The Bible does not present angels as the same as humans so I assume that this is another of your divergences from the mainstream of Christianity. If you believe that they are the same, why the different treatment? Why would Michael, Gabriel, or even Satan for that matter not have gone material like the rest of us?

[Yahu]

I've seen the argument presented many times on this forum that God allows the existence of evil in the world because it is important for man to have free will, otherwise it is argued man would be little better than God's robots. This leads me to wonder how Christians envision Heaven working. So a few questions:

Does free will exist in Heaven?

Is it possible to sin in Heaven and, if so, what happens to the sinner?

If not, how is man not the will-less robots Christians often argue we would be here under similar circumstances?

Of course free will exists in Heaven. But we will all know and understand the consequences of going against the will of Yah.

Yah's plan is to give mankind 6000 years of operating in our own will to show us the consequences of doing things our way. Then there is the 1000 year millennium (1000 year Sabbath) where His rule is a paradise but even then some will rebell against that rule. Any that don't join that rebellion will see that doing things His way is the best way.

Even during the millennium, there will be those that don't attend the required feasts in Jerusalem. Those nations are punished by drought or by plague. There will be immediate consequences in violating the law.

[1213]

I think, when God lives in someone, it means that God is in person and shows what would be the right choice. That’s how people have right understanding. And when people have right understanding, they want freely to choose that option. So it doesn’t abrogate free will, it only guides peoples to make right decisions, in my opinion.

In addition to that, I think in Ezekiel 36:27 is good part that clarifies how God influences in people so that they chose well:

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them

[Metatron]

I've seen the argument presented many times on this forum that God allows the existence of evil in the world because it is important for man to have free will, otherwise it is argued man would be little better than God's robots. This leads me to wonder how Christians envision Heaven working. So a few questions:

Does free will exist in Heaven?

Is it possible to sin in Heaven and, if so, what happens to the sinner?

If not, how is man not the will-less robots Christians often argue we would be here under similar circumstances?

Of course free will exists in Heaven. But we will all know and understand the consequences of going against the will of Yah.

Yah's plan is to give mankind 6000 years of operating in our own will to show us the consequences of doing things our way. Then there is the 1000 year millennium (1000 year Sabbath) where His rule is a paradise but even then some will rebell against that rule. Any that don't join that rebellion will see that doing things His way is the best way.

Even during the millennium, there will be those that don't attend the required feasts in Jerusalem. Those nations are punished by drought or by plague. There will be immediate consequences in violating the law.

Don't devout theists claim to understand the consequences of going against the will of God now? And yet I don't think any Christian or other theist would claim that they are without sin as a result of this knowledge. So unless you are assuming that those who go to heaven have somehow become perfect beings who will always make the proper choices throughout eternity (and thus no longer truly qualify as human), it is reasonable to assume that people possessing free will are going to inevitably "slip up" and sin even if in only minor ways.