Can we really go to heaven?

[Mr. Splib]

This is my first post. A friend suddenly passed away and at his funeral service the pastor's message turned on a light for me. He described heaven and God as "pure." Only those who accepted Jesus as their savior could have their sins wiped away by his sacrifice and enter heaven as pure. But here is where I saw what can only be described as a "flaw" in this logic.

Most people envision a version of themselves entering heaven. Whether its with wings, with a halo, or whatever, I believe they see themselves entering heaven as the person they are now. If heaven is pure, then it is impossible for us to enter as ourselves. It is our thoughts, emotions, and desires as people that make us impure. We cannot be allowed to enter as we are. All humans are sinners. Letting us into heaven as we are makes heaven impure. What we are has to be wiped away upon going into heaven. Wiping away our emotions makes us cease to exist as the unique individuals we are now. What are we then in heaven?

My point is that we have to become completely different in heaven. The people we love and care about during our earthly lives won't be any more special to us in heaven than every other soul we meet since all of our uniqueness has to be washed away.

Mr. Splib

[wotsupdoc]

Nickman[/quote] You made the comment that we are all sinners, but I disagree. You may be a sinner but I am not. When a person gets past the fear and reward mentality of god and religion then life starts to be amazing and you are empowered to be the best you can be for you, no one else.[/quote]

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 21 by wotsupdoc]

Why are you sharing Bible verses about how all have sinned with someone you doesn't believe in the Bible?

[we-live-now]

[Replying to help3434]

I think he does that so you may start believing.

Faith comes by hearing.

God bless.

we-live-now

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 22 by help3434]

Why are you sharing Bible verses about how all have sinned with someone you doesn't believe in the Bible?

Why do you think?

[Divine Insight]

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Romans was written by Paul and Paul was a deeply troubled man who was riddled with extreme guilt. So it's no surprise that his evangelism would include accusations that all men are sinners. He's desperately trying to bring everyone down to his level so he doesn't need to feel so guilty.

Clearly Jesus didn't agree with Paul. Jesus proclaimed that he only came for the sinners and not for the righteous. Therefore there has to be righteous people otherwise Jesus would have been lying by implying that there exist such people.

Moreover if all men are sinners, why even bother labeling them?

Men are just men then and Jesus would have come for everyone which again would conflict with his claim that he came only for the sinners and not for the righteous.

So Paul wasn't a very good preacher since he didn't pay much attention to the teachings of Jesus.

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 17 by Ooberman]

Sadly, religions are made by people, and prone to human error. When a loved one dies it's a common desire to think they are in a "better place", but in reality we all know this is happy talk.

It always sounds so hollow to me. The pastor might as well have said, "He's now in the matrix, and he is now pure energy and happy.."

It's BS, but culturally acceptable BS because most people don't have the will or capacity to think about mortality.


I am truly sorry for you about your friend. Don't let a bunch of ignorant religious wackos ruin your memory of him. It's not worth it.

I say this because too often religious people think they have the right thing to say in moments like that, when in fact they have hollow promises.

Just to make a few corrections here.

One. SOME religions are made by people.

Two. WE DO NOT KNOW in every case it is just happy talk.

Three. When you have a negative mind set as you do, you always will see the worst in everything.

Four. SOME people don't have or don't want the will or capacity to think about mortality.

Five. Ignorance and whackos is a pejorative description and shows your inability to mount a rational discussion.

Six. Too often...How many funerals have you been to?

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 25 by Divine Insight]

Romans was written by Paul and Paul was a deeply troubled man who was riddled with extreme guilt. So it's no surprise that his evangelism would include accusations that all men are sinners.

And your evidence for this is…?

Matthew_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark_2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith to them, They that are in health, have no need of a physician, but they that are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.

Romans_5:8 But God commendeth his love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Timothy_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers, and murderers of mothers, for man-slayers,

1Timothy_1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

James_4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners, and purify your hearts, ye double-minded.

Seems to me that the subject of sinners was central to the gospel.

He's desperately trying to bring everyone down to his level so he doesn't need to feel so guilty.

And your evidence for this is….?

Clearly Jesus didn't agree with Paul. Jesus proclaimed that he only came for the sinners and not for the righteous. Therefore there has to be righteous people otherwise Jesus would have been lying by implying that there exist such people.

He didn't have to. Paul was agreeing with Jesus for the simple reason that the scriptures were written by the Holy Spirit and you don’t form a truth or doctrine from one verse of scripture which you have done, so your claim is totally invalid.

Moreover if all men are sinners, why even bother labeling them?

Because like Kinsman, there are plenty who do not think they are.

Men are just men then and Jesus would have come for everyone which again would conflict with his claim that he came only for the sinners and not for the righteous.

Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

So Paul wasn't a very good preacher since he didn't pay much attention to the teachings of Jesus.

Obviously God did not think so as he entrusted him with the spreading of Christianity more than anyone else.

Sad to say you once again put your own spin on things to try and prove the “gotcha� claims that you seem so fond of.

Until you have done a thorough study of various topics in scripture over several years, your words are just that and they have nothing to offer in the scheme of things.

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

But there are many Protestants who renounce the concept of Hell.

Can you enlighten me as to who these protestants are?

Thankyou.

[wotsupdoc]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

In those fables, it is said that 1/3 of God's angels turned against him and sided with Lucifer who was himself a fallen angel, etc.

Can you enlighten me as to the evidence that this is a fable?

Thankyou.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Quote:
In those fables, it is said that 1/3 of God's angels turned against him and sided with Lucifer who was himself a fallen angel, etc.

Can you enlighten me as to the evidence that this is a fable?

Thankyou.

A fable is a story which is not founded on fact. Can you enlighten us as to where even the Bible makes any such claim? And if it's not even in the Bible, doesn't that mean that you have simply assumed it into existence?