No one deserves to go to Hell

[Jake]

No one deserves to go to Hell. According to the Bible, Hell is a lake of burning sulfur. It's probably several thousand degrees. Not to mention the fact that Hell must expand as more souls enter it each day, so the temperature could actually be increasing. But no matter the exact temperature of the burning lake, I'm here to argue that no one, not even Hitler, deserves Hell. Let's use Hitler as an example, because if I prove he doesn't deserve Hell, I think we can assume no one else does either.

I'll provide you with some approximated statistics. The exact numbers don't matter all that much. About eleven million people died in the Holocaust. Now, the natural life expectancy during that time period was about 65. Let's assume there was an even distribution of ages (0-65) throughout the victims of the Holocaust. About 167,000 people from each of the age groups died. So 167,000 newborns were robbed of 65 years of life, 167,000 one-year-olds were robbed of 64 years of life, and so on. So each victim was robbed of 33 years of life on average, or all of the victims were collectively robbed of 363,000,000 years of life, depending on how you want to look at it. And, of course, I haven't even accounted for the suffering caused to the Holocaust survivors (and the suffering of the dead victims BEFORE they died).

Now, it would be justifiable to rob Hitler of 363 million years of life, would it not? Unfortunately, that's completely impossible. Even if we had managed to find and execute Hitler before he died, his crime would have dwarfed the meager punishment we were able to deal out. Some might argue that he is now getting exactly what he deserves in Hell. But let's think about that for a moment.

The other day, I picked up a firework on the Fourth of July and burned by thumb. (I know, I know, it wasn't very responsible of me!) Anyway, it hurt pretty badly. I shudder to think about having that pain in every part of my body. But when I think about having that pain in my body permanently, and at several hundred times the intensity, the pain I would be enduring is inconceivable. I'm sure most people here can relate. We've all burned ourselves on hot stoves or open flames before.

Take a moment to try to grasp what "forever" means. Imagine experiencing the pain of burning your fingers on a match, except put that pain in every nerve of your body. Now multiply that pain by a few hundred times. Now imagine having to withstand that burning for ten seconds. One minute. Ten minutes. One hour. A day. A week. A year. Two years. Five years. Ten years. A hundred years. A thousand years. A million years. Five trillion years. Even a few hours could drive a person to insanity. But think about trillions of years passing by, and you are no closer to being relieved from the pain. Think of a quadrillion years times a quintillion years times a Googolplex years, feeling the burning of the sulfur as intensely as you felt it at the beginning of your torment.

Furthermore, punishment is meant to deter future crimes, and since those who are in Hell are already dead, they are being tortured pointlessly. I fail to see the purpose in this. It seems to be simply a product of God's vengeance and sadism. Although in his defense, he is immortal, and perhaps does not realize that time seems to pass more slowly for humans than it does for him. If God is immortal, then a second to him is an infinite amount of time to us, and he probably has no concept of how long forever actually is. Regardless, no one deserves Hell whether God realizes what he's doing to the damned or not.

If you try to convince me that Hitler actually deserves this punishment, a punishment of far greater torment than he ever delivered to any other humans, lasting an INFINITE amount of time longer than the mere 363 million years of life he stole, then you have indeed no moral compass. I would even categorize you as dangerous or unstable. But not even you deserve Hell. No one deserves Hell. Not the Devil, not even God, who puts people there in the first place.

I dare you to prove me wrong. I dare you to conceive of a crime that could be worthy of even a million years in Hell.

Before I open the floor to discussion, let me say that I understand some people may know in the back of their minds that Hell is wrong, but they would never admit it for fear of going there themselves. While I think it's sad that anyone could delude themselves to being so fearful, I would also ask that anyone who agrees with me, but doesn't want to admit it, not argue against me. I'm looking to debate anyone who genuinely believes some people deserve Hell. If you don't want to agree with me for fear of angering God, just push that thought further into the back of your mind and forget you ever saw this post.

Now then, let the debate begin.

[AdHoc]

No one deserves to go to Hell. According to the Bible, Hell is a lake of burning sulfur. It's probably several thousand degrees. Not to mention the fact that Hell must expand as more souls enter it each day, so the temperature could actually be increasing. But no matter the exact temperature of the burning lake, I'm here to argue that no one, not even Hitler, deserves Hell. Let's use Hitler as an example, because if I prove he doesn't deserve Hell, I think we can assume no one else does either.

I'll provide you with some approximated statistics. The exact numbers don't matter all that much. About eleven million people died in the Holocaust. Now, the natural life expectancy during that time period was about 65. Let's assume there was an even distribution of ages (0-65) throughout the victims of the Holocaust. About 167,000 people from each of the age groups died. So 167,000 newborns were robbed of 65 years of life, 167,000 one-year-olds were robbed of 64 years of life, and so on. So each victim was robbed of 33 years of life on average, or all of the victims were collectively robbed of 363,000,000 years of life, depending on how you want to look at it. And, of course, I haven't even accounted for the suffering caused to the Holocaust survivors (and the suffering of the dead victims BEFORE they died).

I'm assuming you haven't given this speech to anyone who lost loved ones to Hitler's evil regime?

Now, it would be justifiable to rob Hitler of 363 million years of life, would it not? Unfortunately, that's completely impossible. Even if we had managed to find and execute Hitler before he died, his crime would have dwarfed the meager punishment we were able to deal out. Some might argue that he is now getting exactly what he deserves in Hell. But let's think about that for a moment.

Have you added up all the people who will never be born because a whole generation of people were killed?

Furthermore, punishment is meant to deter future crimes,

What's this belief based on?

and since those who are in Hell are already dead, they are being tortured pointlessly. I fail to see the purpose in this. It seems to be simply a product of God's vengeance and sadism. Although in his defense, he is immortal, and perhaps does not realize that time seems to pass more slowly for humans than it does for him. If God is immortal, then a second to him is an infinite amount of time to us, and he probably has no concept of how long forever actually is. Regardless, no one deserves Hell whether God realizes what he's doing to the damned or not.

If you try to convince me that Hitler actually deserves this punishment, a punishment of far greater torment than he ever delivered to any other humans, lasting an INFINITE amount of time longer than the mere 363 million years of life he stole, then you have indeed no moral compass. I would even categorize you as dangerous or unstable. But not even you deserve Hell. No one deserves Hell. Not the Devil, not even God, who puts people there in the first place.

I dare you to prove me wrong. I dare you to conceive of a crime that could be worthy of even a million years in Hell.

I think its unfortunate that you choose to speak of the holocaust like its "a mere 363 million years of life that (Hitler) stole" I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you realise that it was a time in history that words cannot completely describe the terrible suffering.

But I see a problem with your logic, it seems like if you were judge you would just get out your calculator...
"Tell me how long the bad man beat you little boy?"
"2 hours a day for 7 days?"
"Ok... lets see... thats (scribbles on notepad) carry the one..."
"Fourteen hours in prison!"
"Next case"

[cnorman18]

For the record, the Jewish religion has no formal teaching about an Afterlife. It is not mentioned in the Torah; and Hell, for the record, is a Christian innovation.

There is speculation, of course, and some rabbis speculate that there MUST be some sort of Afterlife, and specifically because of the issue of JUSTICE. Since there is little justice in THIS world, there must be something AFTER it. As one rabbi famously put it: "We do not believe that what happens to Hitler after his death will be the same as that which happens to his victims; but that is as far as we can go."

As with most such speculative matters, we do not claim to know the answers, and we leave them to God.

Or, in its shorter form: "We trust God."

[ttruscott]

God created us so we could have loving communion in a realtionship with us.

Such a relationship is only available by true free will choice.

IF pure love (a love so pure it can never deny the object of that love) is accessed by true free will then

pure evil (an evil so pure it can/will never change nor stop hating and trying to destroy the object of that evil) is also accessible.

How would you save the bulk of creation who are learning to fulfill their purpose of coming into a holy pure loving communion with GOD from

the one third of creation that has chosen to become pure evil, the demons and devils? Is a demon born as a baby any less evil because it has a new body? What would you do with Rosemary's baby?

The fact that demons and devils live on earth among us and do not show their true pure evil is a blessing from GOD that their evil is controlled and surpressed so we can live here. IS satan smart enough to have some of his demonic minions live lives of worldy good and peace? You betcha!

So number one, the life one leads cannot be the criteria for hell, only your self chosen eternal character and self created eternal relationship with GOD.

And, as far as hell goes, I do not know what is symbol and what is exactly real and I do not care. I am learning to trust GOD that whatever HE wants to do with a demon or a devil, (whether in human form or spirit being, whether an old human or a very young human), is fine by me.

Holiness is a choice to hate evil and choose only good and the base, the essence of idolatry is to stand against GOD's will for HIS eternal enemies.

Peace, Ted

[myth-one.com]

Now then, let the debate begin.

Eh, those cast into hell are humans, and will survive no more than a few milliseconds before losing consciousness and life for all eternity.

The punishment for sinning is death, and the punishment of death is everlasting.

In other words, it last forever, or is everlasting.

That is, they will never live again.

I don't see a problem with that.

[Jake]

I'm assuming you haven't given this speech to anyone who lost loved ones to Hitler's evil regime?

I have met actual Holocaust survivors, and no, I haven't given this speech to them. I just made it up when I wrote it, in fact. Are you afraid they would take offense? Because I'm sure if they are survivors, they already know far better than I do what happened at the Holocaust.

Have you added up all the people who will never be born because a whole generation of people were killed?

That's a very good point which I failed to consider. Forget all the numbers and statistics from now on in the debate, then, and let me appeal to your ethics.

Furthermore, punishment is meant to deter future crimes,

What's this belief based on?

I suppose we might just have to agree to disagree on this point, but the way I see it, when those involved in the justice system of the United States, for example, put someone in jail, they're doing it to teach the criminal not to commit further crimes. If they put them in jail for life or execute them, they're doing it so they won't ever have the chance to commit crimes again. I suppose one could argue that everyone deserves some sort of punishment for evil deeds, just for the sake of retribution, but then it really just loses practical purpose, and only serves to satisfy the vengefulness of those giving the punishment.

I think its unfortunate that you choose to speak of the holocaust like its "a mere 363 million years of life that (Hitler) stole" I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you realise that it was a time in history that words cannot completely describe the terrible suffering.

But I see a problem with your logic, it seems like if you were judge you would just get out your calculator...
"Tell me how long the bad man beat you little boy?"
"2 hours a day for 7 days?"
"Ok... lets see... thats (scribbles on notepad) carry the one..."
"Fourteen hours in prison!"
"Next case"

Please, don't think I'm trying to make the Holocaust appear to be less horrific than it was. If I was describing it out of this context I would put much more emotion and tragedy into my statements. However, what I meant was, compared to infinite torture, it is nothing. As for my logic in dealing out punishment, I'm only speaking in terms of punishment for the sake of punishment, not punishment in the real world. To use your example, if a man beat a child for 14 hours over the course of a week, he would deserve a similar treatment, perhaps a bit worse. That would be "fair". But in the real world, he would need to be put in jail for a long time, because beating him for about 14 hours wouldn't do any good. It wouldn't serve to deter him from beating more kids in the future.

But even if you don't accept any of that logic involving the man-beating-child example, it doesn't really matter, because that example isn't even comparable to torturing a man for all eternity because he ordered millions of people to die.

I don't care how many trillions upon trillions of years of life were lost because people were killed and prevented from having children who were prevented from having children and so on. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is unjust. I really do want you to take a moment to try to imagine the agony Hitler must have been in for the last few decades. But think about the fact that it will go on forever. I think many people dismiss this out of hand, and they really do fail to comprehend how long forever is.

You could tell me there is a man who went from planet to planet, torturing and slaughtering every species he found there, and he did this for hundreds of planets for years and years. He would not deserve an infinite punishment. Infinite punishments are always infinitely more terrible than the crimes. There is no justice there.

For the record, the Jewish religion has no formal teaching about an Afterlife. It is not mentioned in the Torah; and Hell, for the record, is a Christian innovation.

There is speculation, of course, and some rabbis speculate that there MUST be some sort of Afterlife, and specifically because of the issue of JUSTICE. Since there is little justice in THIS world, there must be something AFTER it. As one rabbi famously put it: "We do not believe that what happens to Hitler after his death will be the same as that which happens to his victims; but that is as far as we can go."

As with most such speculative matters, we do not claim to know the answers, and we leave them to God.

Or, in its shorter form: "We trust God."

Though I appreciate the new information, I was assuming there to be a Hell for the purpose of this argument. I don't really see the fact that the Jews didn't believe in a Hell to be relevant, because not everyone claimed by the Holocaust was Jewish, and Hitler was probably Christian, so by his own religion he's in Hell. Personally, as an atheist, I definitely don't believe in Hell, but I'm assuming there is one for the sake of argument.

God created us so we could have loving communion in a realtionship with us.

Such a relationship is only available by true free will choice.

IF pure love (a love so pure it can never deny the object of that love) is accessed by true free will then

pure evil (an evil so pure it can/will never change nor stop hating and trying to destroy the object of that evil) is also accessible.

How would you save the bulk of creation who are learning to fulfill their purpose of coming into a holy pure loving communion with GOD from

the one third of creation that has chosen to become pure evil, the demons and devils? Is a demon born as a baby any less evil because it has a new body? What would you do with Rosemary's baby?

The fact that demons and devils live on earth among us and do not show their true pure evil is a blessing from GOD that their evil is controlled and surpressed so we can live here. IS satan smart enough to have some of his demonic minions live lives of worldy good and peace? You betcha!

So number one, the life one leads cannot be the criteria for hell, only your self chosen eternal character and self created eternal relationship with GOD.

And, as far as hell goes, I do not know what is symbol and what is exactly real and I do not care. I am learning to trust GOD that whatever HE wants to do with a demon or a devil, (whether in human form or spirit being, whether an old human or a very young human), is fine by me.

Holiness is a choice to hate evil and choose only good and the base, the essence of idolatry is to stand against GOD's will for HIS eternal enemies.

Peace, Ted

So let me get this straight. You believe that some people on Earth are actually demons, and they're the ones who go to Hell? Please do some explaining for me. What exactly are demons? How did they come into existence? And please explain what they actually did/do to deserve Hell. What are their crimes? Because if they are guilty of nothing more than turning their back on God and being part of some species of demon, then I would argue that God is arrogant, vain, and insecure for punishing those who decide not to worship him, and also racist. Like I said, though, I need more explanation as to what a demon is and how it comes into existence and what its crimes are.

Eh, those cast into hell are humans, and will survive no more than a few milliseconds before losing consciousness and life for all eternity.

The punishment for sinning is death, and the punishment of death is everlasting.

In other words, it last forever, or is everlasting.

That is, they will never live again.

I don't see a problem with that.

Well, depending on the degree of the crimes committed by those being punished, I would agree that they deserve eternal destruction. But that isn't what the Bible describes. It describes eternal torture.

[Jake]

[deleted post]

[ttruscott]

...

God created us so we could have loving communion in a realtionship with us.

Such a relationship is only available by true free will choice.

IF pure love (a love so pure it can never deny the object of that love) is accessed by true free will then

pure evil (an evil so pure it can/will never change nor stop hating and trying to destroy the object of that evil) is also accessible.

How would you save the bulk of creation who are learning to fulfill their purpose of coming into a holy pure loving communion with GOD from

the one third of creation that has chosen to become pure evil, the demons and devils? Is a demon born as a baby any less evil because it has a new body? What would you do with Rosemary's baby?

The fact that demons and devils live on earth among us and do not show their true pure evil is a blessing from GOD that their evil is controlled and surpressed so we can live here. IS satan smart enough to have some of his demonic minions live lives of worldy good and peace? You betcha!

So number one, the life one leads cannot be the criteria for hell, only your self chosen eternal character and self created eternal relationship with GOD.

And, as far as hell goes, I do not know what is symbol and what is exactly real and I do not care. I am learning to trust GOD that whatever HE wants to do with a demon or a devil, (whether in human form or spirit being, whether an old human or a very young human), is fine by me.

Holiness is a choice to hate evil and choose only good and the base, the essence of idolatry is to stand against GOD's will for HIS eternal enemies.

Peace, Ted

So let me get this straight. You believe that some people on Earth are actually demons, and they're the ones who go to Hell? Please do some explaining for me. What exactly are demons? How did they come into existence? And please explain what they actually did/do to deserve Hell. What are their crimes? Because if they are guilty of nothing more than turning their back on God and being part of some species of demon, then I would argue that God is arrogant, vain, and insecure for punishing those who decide not to worship him, and also racist. Like I said, though, I need more explanation as to what a demon is and how it comes into existence and what its crimes are.
...

My question first please:

How would you save the bulk of creation who are learning to fulfill their purpose of coming into a holy pure loving communion with GOD from

the one third of creation that has chosen to become pure evil, the demons and devils?

Show some quid pro quo and I'll to provide the answers you have asked to be given...

Peace, Ted

[Jake]

My question first please:

How would you save the bulk of creation who are learning to fulfill their purpose of coming into a holy pure loving communion with GOD from

the one third of creation that has chosen to become pure evil, the demons and devils?

Show some quid pro quo and I'll to provide the answers you have asked to be given...

Peace, Ted

Well, since you haven't told me what demons and devils are and what exactly they're doing to harm the rest of creation, it's difficult to answer. Assuming they are doing SOMEthing on Earth to corrupt humanity, I suppose they could be either put somewhere far away from humans or simply destroyed forever. But eternal torture is sadistic and unnecessary.

[ttruscott]

My question first please:

How would you save the bulk of creation who are learning to fulfill their purpose of coming into a holy pure loving communion with GOD from

the one third of creation that has chosen to become pure evil, the demons and devils?

Show some quid pro quo and I'll to provide the answers you have asked to be given...

Peace, Ted

Well, since you haven't told me what demons and devils are and what exactly they're doing to harm the rest of creation, it's difficult to answer. Assuming they are doing SOMEthing on Earth to corrupt humanity, I suppose they could be either put somewhere far away from humans or simply destroyed forever. But eternal torture is sadistic and unnecessary.

EX-cellent and thank you.

The answer is found in the nature of free will. I can tell you right now that you have never considered it from this pov because the true nature of free will has expanded.

The long version is ...well...ummm... long and boring to those who are only nominally interested.

The short version leaves gaps that must be filled in and if someone is antgonistic they fill it in with , ummm, antagonism.

So, I will give your sincerity the benefit of the doubt and go for the long version.

The nature of Predestination, Election and Free Will according to PCE (Pre-Conception Existence):

Preamble: Why Create?
Once upon a time, (excuse this opening but I think better in story form than in harsh legalistic doctrine, sigh) GOD decided to create to fulfill the following purposes of HIS creation:
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Matthew 22:
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

Revelation 14:7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory..."


Creation Problems?
But They realized only by a truly free will choice, (made by faith, hope without proof), could a created person become a real loving person offering real praise and worship. (Natural unassailable logic.)

Creating a person who is merely a meat or spiritual robot saying, "I love you, I praise you," is obviously inadequate. Causing such fear and dread, or seducing awe in a person so they say, ever so fondly, "I love you, I praise you as my GOD!"" is also inadequate.

Therefore They had to set up such a situation in which a created person could become a loving person by their own real choice. Such a choice would have to be a true free will choice uncoerced by anything at all and made on faith, ie. hope without proof because proof before the choice was made would coerce the choice, (part 2 below).

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could force them to choose love or hate, good or evil.

Nothing in their experience could force them to choose love or hate, good or evil.

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could force them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ingenuousness as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?� must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,� “life there,� was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice.

Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice. Such a choice, is described as making a choice based on faith, ie hope without proof.

(Now, ask yourself: is this possible on earth?)

Pure love; Pure Evil:
It was also apparent that IF a love so pure it could never turn against the object of its love was to be possible by a personal true free will choice, then, for a true choice to be present, it must also be possible that the outcome of the personal true free will choice could be pure evil, or an evil so committed to evil it will never / can never choose to reject their evil to try to seek good.

Such a choice to reject the call to becoming a loving person (in God's image) therefore was to choose to become totally estranged from the Will of God and the reason for their creation, which is the ultimate definition of evil.

God also knew that such evil children would never quit hating Him and His loving followers once they learned the proof of their evil, and that they would never quit trying to corrupt or destroy HIS church so He knew such a choice to become evil meant the evil child would have to be separated from the rest of creation for eternity; separated from the joys of God's love and His other children. This place of separation from the will and love of God is called hell.

Thus the possibility of true love, praise and worship coming into existence also meant the possibility of someone (or all) choosing to become evil (rejecting God's will for them) and so bringing evil into God's (so far ingenuously innocent) creation.

Proof of Consequences and Eternal Choice:
Once the supposed consequences of the choice were proven, the choice could never be changed due to the coercion caused by the loss of innocence caused by seeing the results, the proof, of the choice. [A person who rejected GOD could never, after proof, repent and claim they now accept HIS will for them because they are acting only from self interest and not a true decison to accept GOD's will so they would always be a robot, programmed by fear to bow, which is unacceptable to GOD.]

The Coercive Nature of Their Glory:
A problem They faced was Their Glory. If They showed Themselves to Their creations in all Their glory, it would be a coercion upon these people to bow to these obviously superior beings and thus destroy their ability to truly choose to learn to love. So They chose in Their wisdom to hide Their glory and to look to be as one of us, the created beings, Their children. This is somewhat same as we know it on earth...GOD is here but hidden, especially as the man Jesus.

The Problem of Their Omniscience:
Then They came to the question: if, before their creation, GOD knew that one of their children would in fact make a free will choice to reject their offer of love and thus become estranged from Them (by self chosen evil) forever, would it not be a perfect expression of GOD's nature as love to not create such a person who would thereby miss the sufferings of hell?

Since this would result in the creation of only those who would choose to love Them, it would be the easy way to fulfill 1 Timothy 2:4 ...who wants all men to be saved. Since not all people are saved and some do face HIS wrath, it is implied that HE did not know their fate before their creation and solved this problem in a different manner.

This forced the necessity that in this one instance God must abrogate His omniscience and decide to not know the outcome of the true free will choice Their children would make. This was accomplished by God's Decrees of Creation.

By His omniscience HE knew that which He decreed to be created to the utmost perfect detail. If He did not decree its creation, He did not "know it" since it did not exist, and was known only as a possibility.

But by allowing His creation to choose on their own without coercion of any kind and totally free of His Divine Decree, He would ensure that their choice would be a true free will choice made by faith, ie from hope without proof.

Once all these decisions were in place, the three Divine Spirits created the perfect number of innocent/ingenuous children and lived among them as they explored each other in the spirit place they were in.

At the perfect time, They then announced that though They looked the same as everyone else, They were in fact Divine and so were worthy of being worshipped as God in a way none other could ever be. They also claimed to have created everyone else for the purpose of becoming loving beings capable of true worship and that that process would start with them bowing to the Three as God.

They explained the nature of a true free will choice and also that the nature of the consequences of the choice would fix their inner nature and their relationship with GOD forever into the mold of their choice.

On the plus side the full consequences of choosing to accept HIS will for their creation were discussed. THEY promised that once someone bowed to THEM in faith, without proof that THEY were GOD, that THEY would never stop loving that person nor would THEY ever quit trying to redeem that person if they should ever slip into sin. (Ephesians 1:4 For he chose/elected us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.) This promise was called election and the promise of redemption told to us all was called the gospel (Colossians 1:23 If indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven and Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;)

Then the full consequences of becoming pure evil were explored including the righteousness of the condemnation to hell, and that the act of bowing to THEM would save those who bowed from ever having to experience hell themselves.

Some enterprising spirits asked: "But what if we choose to bow to you as God to escape hell and then ignored you forever?"

God told them that once they bowed and became His elect church, no matter how far they might stray from HIS will into evil or how strongly they might reject His love, that because of their own free will choice to become able to fulfill HIS purpose for their creation, He could always return them to that choice and help them to become the holy, perfect, loving children, redeemed and sanctified. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

And so the community of spirits pondered and discussed these revelations among themselves until they knew their deepest inner heart's desire, their truest hope for the kind of life they wanted to live, and so came the time of choice, the time of testing the spirits.

Faith is not just "not by proof" but also "by hope."
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, ie unproven.

Learning the full details of the (supposed) consequences of our decision made the choice a true choice and not just a guess. But knowing these (supposed) consequences also gave us a framework from which we could choose,

choose which kind of life we wanted to have, which kind of life we hoped to have by making this choice:

1. a life with a GOD who was (supposedly, remember - no proof?) perfect and created us to join HIM in that perfection and in loving holy communion forever but who would (supposedly) damn anyone who became HIS eternal enemy by rejecting HIS plan for their creation,
or
2. a life in which we were just as important as the (supposedly) false god, better in fact because we were not liars about ourselves. A life in which we are our own GOD and our laws and our love is the epitomé of perfection. A life in which we bow to no one.

The vast majority chose to bow to GOD's will, choosing to become loving spirits and elect members in His Church with their names written into the Book of Life,

but a few rejected the Three, calling Them liars and boasters and claimed they were the equal of the Three and so refused to bow, declaring that they too were worthy of worship and that the love they had already was as good as Godly love anytime.

And thus from their deepest hopes for that kind of life, they knowingly (but only supposedly) became the eternal enemies of GOD, condemned to be damned.

God then told His newly elected church to "come out from among" the evil ones, explaining that only if the church rejected the evil ones in their heart could they become holy (untainted by sin) and learn how to love as God loved.

But some of the church at this time chose to rebel against this call to reject the evil ones, claiming a real love for them, that they were not all that bad, given time they would change, damnation was too harsh, etc, thus falling into idolatry and sin themselves and becoming sinners outside the will but not the love of God.

God again called all the remaining (so far) obedient elect to come apart from the fallen church but some refused this call and fell themselves into becoming sinners and so it was repeated until every spirit had finished choosing exactly where it stood in relation to the call / will of God and their relationship with other sinners.

This process of a true free will choice separated all created spirits into 2 main camps; those damned, condemned to hell (the goats) and those predestined to be conformed to the image of HIS Son as His holy church, (the sheep).

Church members were also separated:
• those who never rejected God's will for them and were His Holy Church and
• those who sinned at the first call to come away from the damned, and
• those who sinned later by refusing to leave behind their elect but now sinful friends and so on and so on, all collectively called His sinful/fallen church.

The consequence of some of HIS elect becoming sinners meant that the judgment had to be postponed until the last of HIS sinful elect was redeemed and made holy, ready to damn HIS eternal enemies.

Once this process was completed, all free uncoerced choice ended when God in His Majesty revealed Himself in all His Power and Glory by HIS creation of the Universe, proving to all the spirits the full consequences of their choice of bowing to Him or of rejecting Him (Rom. 1:20), and ever knee did bow and every voice did sing HIS praise.

God created the Universe and earth as a place His elect but fallen church could be born into bodies and live with the damned to thereby learn the true nature of the never relenting evil in the hearts of the damned until they learned to be holy and ready to damn the reprobate.

A physical place was necessary so the sinful elect spirits could feel the pain of the slavery of their evil choices in their bodies, hearts and minds until by grace they could be redeemed and perfected and matured in sanctification and became able to live with God in Heaven.

And so the sinners Adam and Eve came to Earth to live in the garden to undergo the experience of living enslaved to sin until by grace they could reject sin for holiness and become ready to learn how to love and worship in truth.

This process of perfecting His chosen children is still ongoing but if the signs are right, perhaps it is nearly over and we are in the last days of the purification of the last of those sinners who are predestined to Heaven.

So, as I have been led to understand how these things go together for the True Glory of the GOD WHO IS LOVE; the order of creation was this:
1. the creation of all spirits in HIS image
2. the first commandment to love and obey and glorify GOD
3. resulting in the split between those who bowed and those who rebelled
4. GOD's choice / election of the one's who accepted HIM as GOD by their true free will choice by faith, (ie, in hope and without proof), predestening them to be conformed to the image of HIS Son and granting them HIS divine love.

5. The judgement of those who became reprobate, ie true and purely evil, hateful and destructive to the max, demons and devils, criminals of the worst imaginable sort, by rejecting GOD by their true free will decision made with full knowlege but by faith, ie hope wihtout proof that HE was a false GOD.

So the damned, demons and devils, are not a separate species of any sort but are separated by their hopes and dreams causing them to eternally hate GOD and HIS church, against all fair warnings.

Thus not only is our free will a completely necessary part of our self chosen destiny, it is mingled strongly with GOD's expression of HIS love for the one's who chose to join HIS church; election, predestination, and the gospel and His eventual removal of all HIS eternal enemies to hell, whatever that means.

Peace, Ted