Traditional Witchcraft & Wicca

[Ankhhape]

This is a continuation from another thread on Witchcraft.
I would like to discuss/debate the similarity/differences between what is termed; Traditional Witchcraft and Wicca.

Please, anyone jump in as I formulate my opinion.

[Serpent Oracle]

Perhaps the difference is truly individualist and the age difference?

I have found that if you discover what is common to all beliefs religions and traditions, a running theme if you will, then you find the ancient core of human belief, perhaps the true vision.

Thus I read about all the philosophies religions and traditions I can and try to take from them all that is concordant to create my own belief system.

A kaleidoscopic mosaic and the whole image is still resolving...

Being someone who believes in Individualism, what could possibly be the common thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions?

Spirituality, certain moral concepts (Such as brother/sisterhood, non violence, disdain for materialism...etc), an appreciation that reality may not be confined to our limited & subjective perceptions (including our scientific limitations of observation) and other things.

Don't interpret ALL literally...I take some from ALL...obviously some concepts are completely opposed to others...I have to of course inject my individualist spin and preferences, as I reject and accept or consider...I try to be objective...I am not deluding myself that I am creating the 'one true religion' or something.

Just the vision of the Serpent Oracle...which may or may not be closer to the truth than other visions, I like to imagine it is.

[Serpent Oracle]

Because all religious beliefs and traditions are ultimately nothing more than some individual's philosophical or superstitious idea that slowly gained a following.

I am not 100% sure about that, my reasoning for that doubt is embarrassing but no less scientifically valid, after all highly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, a hint ...but surely yes indeedy via superstition and mythic story telling almost all religions have grown and changed/developed.
Of course religions also change in other ways...like when they assimilate older religions for example.
As Christianity did when it assimilated Christmas from the Pagan winter celebrations or when it absorbed Isis and turned her into Mary...effectively.

[Ankhhape]

I was actually suggesting that Individualism might be the common thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions. Because all religious beliefs and traditions are ultimately nothing more than some individual's philosophical or superstitious idea that slowly gained a following.


So Individualism is the common thread thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions.

That is true, except their remain religions where you are a follower of another's vision and not your own, that is not Individualism in religion, that is worship and surrendering of the Self to someone else's paradigm and not your own.

[Ankhhape]

Perhaps the difference is truly individualist and the age difference?

I have found that if you discover what is common to all beliefs religions and traditions, a running theme if you will, then you find the ancient core of human belief, perhaps the true vision.

Thus I read about all the philosophies religions and traditions I can and try to take from them all that is concordant to create my own belief system.

A kaleidoscopic mosaic and the whole image is still resolving...

Being someone who believes in Individualism, what could possibly be the common thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions?

Spirituality, certain moral concepts (Such as brother/sisterhood, non violence, disdain for materialism...etc), an appreciation that reality may not be confined to our limited & subjective perceptions (including our scientific limitations of observation) and other things.

Don't interpret ALL literally...I take some from ALL...obviously some concepts are completely opposed to others...I have to of course inject my individualist spin and preferences, as I reject and accept or consider...I try to be objective...I am not deluding myself that I am creating the 'one true religion' or something.

Just the vision of the Serpent Oracle...which may or may not be closer to the truth than other visions, I like to imagine it is.

Taking what you like from whatever Belief system is an approach that many modern occultists practice, particularly in Chaos Magick.

I have never found there to be a common thread in all religions concerning morality, violence, or materialism. The approach to each of these can greatly differ from System to System.

[Serpent Oracle]

Perhaps the difference is truly individualist and the age difference?

I have found that if you discover what is common to all beliefs religions and traditions, a running theme if you will, then you find the ancient core of human belief, perhaps the true vision.

Thus I read about all the philosophies religions and traditions I can and try to take from them all that is concordant to create my own belief system.

A kaleidoscopic mosaic and the whole image is still resolving...

Being someone who believes in Individualism, what could possibly be the common thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions?

Spirituality, certain moral concepts (Such as brother/sisterhood, non violence, disdain for materialism...etc), an appreciation that reality may not be confined to our limited & subjective perceptions (including our scientific limitations of observation) and other things.

Don't interpret ALL literally...I take some from ALL...obviously some concepts are completely opposed to others...I have to of course inject my individualist spin and preferences, as I reject and accept or consider...I try to be objective...I am not deluding myself that I am creating the 'one true religion' or something.

Just the vision of the Serpent Oracle...which may or may not be closer to the truth than other visions, I like to imagine it is.

Taking what you like from whatever Belief system is an approach that many modern occultists practice, particularly in Chaos Magick.

I have never found there to be a common thread in all religions concerning morality, violence, or materialism. The approach to each of these can greatly differ from System to System.

The common thread for example concerning violence and the teachings that prohibit it can be found in many religions, as I said I did not mean ALL religions, I meant threads common or concordant to many religions and I included all known belief systems as well (to me), not just theistic religions.

Not ALL religions prohibit violence and many are self contradictory about it...but that does not matter...it is like mining for gemstones amongst worthless rubble.

Example...

From the Holy Bible


You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matt. 5:38-39)

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)

Put your sword back in its place...for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matt. 5:9)

From the Koran

O you who believe! …….And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allâh is Most Merciful to you. And whoever commits that through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him into the Fire, and that is easy for Allâh.

(B) Quran Surah Al Isra 17 : 33

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allâh and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allâh. Verily, Allâh is Well¬Acquainted with what you do.

(D) Qur'an Surah Al Maidah (5:32)

From the Dalai Lama

''The Buddha was quite clear in his renunciation of violence: "Victory creates hatred. Defeat creates suffering. The wise ones desire neither victory nor defeat... Anger creates anger... He who kills will be killed. He who wins will be defeated... Revenge can only be overcome by abandoning revenge... The wise seek neither victory nor defeat."

After waging many wars, Emperor Asoka was so moved by sayings such as these that he converted to Buddhism and became the model for later Buddhist kings. Buddhism retreated from India, China, Vietnam, and other countries rather than involve its believers in armed struggles to preserve itself. Again, this illustrates the strengths and the weaknesses of Buddhism.''

Etc...

[Divine Insight]

Spirituality, certain moral concepts (Such as brother/sisterhood, non violence, disdain for materialism...etc), an appreciation that reality may not be confined to our limited & subjective perceptions (including our scientific limitations of observation) and other things.

Where is there any disdain for materialism in Wicca?

I would also suggest that there is no disdain for materialism in Buddhism either. That's actually a misconception of the underlying idea.

Buddhists refrain from participating in everyday events because the idea is not to become involved with the dream of life anymore. That's how you get out of the dream. And that is mistakenly seen as a disdain for materialism.

But the deeper philosophical idea is simply that if you want to get out of the dream you need to quit participating in the dream. And the way to do that is to quite becoming involved in the dream. Especially in activities that hold promise of future goals. Having future goals is the same as having the desire to stick around in the dream until those goals have been realized.

The whole idea of Buddhism is to get into a mindset where you are living entirely in the "now" with absolutely no dreams or expectation of what you'd like to experience in the future.

As long as you've got your mind set on dreams that have yet to unfold, then you are still "Dreaming" of a future that hasn't yet unraveled. And you'll never get out of a dream that way.

So it's really not a disdain for materialism. It's really based on a totally different psychological concept of simply not wantint to have any expectations of the future.

Like Jesus taught. "Take no thought of the morrow"

If your spiritual goal is to get out of the dream you've got to stop clinging to future expectations, because that very act is nothing more than a desire to keep on dreaming.

[Serpent Oracle]

Spirituality, certain moral concepts (Such as brother/sisterhood, non violence, disdain for materialism...etc), an appreciation that reality may not be confined to our limited & subjective perceptions (including our scientific limitations of observation) and other things.

Where is there any disdain for materialism in Wicca?

I would also suggest that there is no disdain for materialism in Buddhism either. That's actually a misconception of the underlying idea.

Buddhists refrain from participating in everyday events because the idea is not to become involved with the dream of life anymore. That's how you get out of the dream. And that is mistakenly seen as a disdain for materialism.

But the deeper philosophical idea is simply that if you want to get out of the dream you need to quit participating in the dream. And the way to do that is to quite becoming involved in the dream. Especially in activities that hold promise of future goals. Having future goals is the same as having the desire to stick around in the dream until those goals have been realized.

The whole idea of Buddhism is to get into a mindset where you are living entirely in the "now" with absolutely no dreams or expectation of what you'd like to experience in the future.

As long as you've got your mind set on dreams that have yet to unfold, then you are still "Dreaming" of a future that hasn't yet unraveled. And you'll never get out of a dream that way.

So it's really not a disdain for materialism. It's really based on a totally different psychological concept of simply not wantint to have any expectations of the future.

Like Jesus taught. "Take no thought of the morrow"

If your spiritual goal is to get out of the dream you've got to stop clinging to future expectations, because that very act is nothing more than a desire to keep on dreaming.

I think not...

To want is to suffer...that is the core of Buddhist belief regarding materialism...and the core of what I was saying about a disdain for materialism, a disdain for suffering...I do not know what you are talking about regarding dreams.

What do you mean by that there is no disdain for materialism in Wicca I dont know how you can say that...sensibly.
Considering the very variational nature of Wicca...not that I believe in 'orthodox' Wicca nor would care if materialism is significant or not...to Wicca.

How does that effect my argument?

[Serpent Oracle]

If your spiritual goal is to get out of the dream you've got to stop clinging to future expectations, because that very act is nothing more than a desire to keep on dreaming.

I have not the faintest idea what you are talking about, you sound preachy though....I do not accept your perspective premise however, I cope better with want and suffering...your metaphor is too alien for my mind.

You must understand that you know nothing about my spiritual goal(s), if I even have such a thing...

If I have got the wrong end of the stick I apologise...I am extremely intolerant, spiny, hostile and defensive by nature...I do my best to resist these impulses....so take no notice.

[Serpent Oracle]

Sorry DI...someone at home has just read what you typed and explained that you are essentially saying the same thing as I, which I sort of belatedly realised..hence the hasty editing...

For me materialism causes suffering two fold...to those who want out of avarice or greed..which in turn makes other want for need of basic necessities...that isnt buddhism...perhaps...but it is the basis of my concordant/mosaic beliefs about materialism.
As the inspiration for the above comes from other religions such as Christianity as well as Buddhism.

[Ankhhape]

Perhaps the difference is truly individualist and the age difference?

I have found that if you discover what is common to all beliefs religions and traditions, a running theme if you will, then you find the ancient core of human belief, perhaps the true vision.

Thus I read about all the philosophies religions and traditions I can and try to take from them all that is concordant to create my own belief system.

A kaleidoscopic mosaic and the whole image is still resolving...

Being someone who believes in Individualism, what could possibly be the common thread to 'ALL' beliefs/religions/traditions?

Spirituality, certain moral concepts (Such as brother/sisterhood, non violence, disdain for materialism...etc), an appreciation that reality may not be confined to our limited & subjective perceptions (including our scientific limitations of observation) and other things.

Don't interpret ALL literally...I take some from ALL...obviously some concepts are completely opposed to others...I have to of course inject my individualist spin and preferences, as I reject and accept or consider...I try to be objective...I am not deluding myself that I am creating the 'one true religion' or something.

Just the vision of the Serpent Oracle...which may or may not be closer to the truth than other visions, I like to imagine it is.

Taking what you like from whatever Belief system is an approach that many modern occultists practice, particularly in Chaos Magick.

I have never found there to be a common thread in all religions concerning morality, violence, or materialism. The approach to each of these can greatly differ from System to System.

The common thread for example concerning violence and the teachings that prohibit it can be found in many religions, as I said I did not mean ALL religions, I meant threads common or concordant to many religions and I included all known belief systems as well (to me), not just theistic religions.

Not ALL religions prohibit violence and many are self contradictory about it...but that does not matter...it is like mining for gemstones amongst worthless rubble.

I can agree, this is a daunting task, I would just like to point out that some religions, such as our Darker ones, are not in compliance with most of the typical religious teachings. AND . . . yes, there has always been some form of hypocritical thing going on anyway in ALL religions (perhaps THAT is the common denominator of all religion?).