Proving that Mormonism is false

[Nickman]

I claim that it is a fact that the LDS faith is 100% false and I will back it up. I will use know facts that are extra-biblical. As well as the bible. I am an atheist and a humanist just so you know my background. I was a christian for most of my life and LDS for several of those years and I live in mormon central, SLC.

In this thread please make contributions for or againts the arguement.

Joseph Smith is the trunk of the tree known as mormonism so if you cut him out you make the tree fall.

Joseph claimed he was visited after a sincere prayer asking what church was the true church. He said he was answered by god and jesus. The bible says no man hath seen god, but I don't believe in the bible so I will move forward. Later he was visited by moroni which was an angel three times in one night depending on which version you read. He was told about some plates which he would receive when he was old enough. Age was a big deal back then when it came to truth. He said he received the plates when the time was appointed and they were gold. Note that the weight of the plates would have been 30-60 lbs. There were eight witnesses to the plates which later were excommunicated. They never denied but their affiliation was suspicious. Four were Whitmers and friends of the Smith's. The others were Smiths. So two families associated well. The witness selection is very sketchy. Smith went to translate and his efforts were secret. On one occassion Martin harris wanted to prove to his wife that the money they had loaned was not used in vain and asked for the copies. Smith obliged after some prodding and low and behold the 116 copies were lost so moroni took the plates back from july to sept 1828. Those 116 pages were dismissed because Smith couldnt reproduce them or if he could then harris's wife would alter the originals making Smith a liar. Sounds like a backup plan or a latter day cover up.

Ok past all that Joseph gave the plates back and could never produce them to anyone that could actually give any credit to them. What we are left with is the book of mormon, the most boring read I have ever come across. It was translated by a man with an eigth grade education and reads as such. It claims many things such as horses in south america, that werent there, spices and swords that were not there. Names of places that are not found.

With all this said the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Especially the facsimilies. These facsimilies were sold after Smiths death by his wife and lost for a while. Before and after that several Egyptologists reviewed them and reported as such all of which are sourced;

Wikipedia

Sometime in 1856, Theodule Deveria, an Egyptologist at the Louvre, had the opportunity to examine the facsimiles published as part of the Book of Abraham. [24] His interpretation, juxtaposed with Smith's interpretation, was published in T. B. H. Stenhouse's book The Rocky Mountain Saints: A Full and Complete History of the Mormons in 1873. [25] Additionally, later in 1912, Reverend Franklin S. Spalding sent copies of the three facsimiles to eight Egyptologists and semitists soliciting their interpretation of the facsimiles, the results of which were published in Spalding's work Joseph Smith, Jr. As a Translator. Deveria, and each of the eight scholars recognized the facsimiles as portions of ordinary funerary documents, and some harshly condemned Joseph Smith's interpretation: Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization." [26]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations" [27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No.[28]

The actual papyrus has was found... it is not what joseph translated. Joseph was a fraud but very smart. He made money from his followers. His legacy still does.

[Nickman]

The LDS church is a system. The system is always right no matter what!
You cannot convince the system. The system doesn't care what your doubts are or if you have certain feelings. The system is designed to keep you in the herd through manipulation, guilt, and fear. You can never be right unless you follow the systems rules. If you do not follow the systems rules you will be expendable, unless they can manipulate, create fear, or guilt in you to make you shut up and follow the rules.

Here is an example;

The first sign of this system working to get you in is a tactic used by the missionaries. The missionaries ask you to read the BoM and to follow Moroni's promise located in Moroni 10:4.

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. [Moroni 10:4]

This challenge/promise is what brings in a lot of new converts. The Missionaries ask the member to take this challenge and they will get a "burning in the bosom" (whatever that is, sounds like hemmoroids). Many converts take the challenge and to no avail nothing happens as promised. The next thing that happens when the missionaries follow up is quite genius. I hope you can see the manipulation and the problem here. In the scenario below, Mary is the potential convert.

The missionaries stop by Mary's home and greet her at the door. She lets them in and they sit down for a discussion. "Have you had the time to follow Moroni's Challenge Mary?" "I have", Mary replies. "And what conclusion did you come to?", said one missionary. "I didn't feel anything", Mary replied. "You must have not been sincere enough, Mary." "But I was sincere and I prayed hard about it all night long", says Mary. "You must have not had enough faith" the missionaries reply. "but my faith is very strong and I was 100% honest and sincere in my prayer", "I wanted to know more than anything the truth". One missionary says, "You must have a certain sin in your life that is not resolved, get rid of whatever sins you are holding on to and you will receive this testimony." "I don't have any sins or feelings of guilt", says Mary. "You must try harder", one missionary says.

Can anyone see what has happened? The system (LDS Church) has made a promise to the potential convert Mary that if she follows A then B will happen. Mary does so to the "T". When asked about it she tells them nothing happened. The system is never wrong, so the system tells Mary she wasn't sincere. The system places the blame on Mary. She comes back with her innocence and honesty. The system is never wrong, it can't be wrong. The system tells her that she doesn't have faith enough and needs to acquire more. Mary begins to think that she is inadequate and the challenge becomes more of a passion and desire to prove them wrong, and that she can feel the burning in the bosom. The new convert is steps away from joining.

This is one way that the church uses to manipulate people into the church. Once your in, the tactics to hold you in get more crafty. Once the individual is in they become a shell of their former self. They follow the system and whatever it says, because no matter what the system says it is always right. If the system says that the sky is orange regardless of our own thinking process, the system is always right. Every problem has a manual to it. Every situation has a pamphlet. The members brain does not need to think. All information they need to follow the system is readily available and handed out.

Ward Teachers' Message published in the Improvement Era in June 1945

Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes, whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the "prophets, seers, and revelators" of the Church is cultivating the spirit of apostasy.... Lucifer ... wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak against their leaders and to "do their own thinking."... When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan—it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.
Journal of Discourses 11:107.

The system was made from the beginning to be the sole authority over it's members. You are not your own property, all the things you do are done in accordance to how they want you to. A tenth of your money is required or you cannot receive the promised blessings promised to you before joining. I bet you didn't see that coming. Open your eyes people.

This is up for debate if anyone wants to add or detract from it please do.

Ideas posted were from a Book I read called "The Double-Bind"

[Nickman]

In the LDS church, tithing is very important. It is both voluntary and an obligation and I will explain why. This is known as a double-bind.

The LDS church requires that its members pay a full 10% of their gross annual income. Although it is voluntary to pay tithing, it is a requirement for certain blessings and gifts. This makes no sense to begin with.

To break it down in terms of numbers, if a member were to make $80K annually then they would pay $8K a year to the church and in 50 years of committed tithing they could have paid $400,000.

The blessings I spoke of earlier are those received in the temple. The temple is very sacred and special to the LDS faith. In the temple there are several ordinances that take place which are crucial to the faith. The baptism for the dead is an ordinance one can perform for loved ones that have passed on in order to give them a chance for a "true" and "authorized" baptism. The second one is the endowment which places blessings upon the member and gives them a new name for when they get to heaven (mine was Jethro). In this ordinance one is also endowed with the garments for protection, direction and a dress code of sorts. Lastly there is the sealing ordinance which binds two people or more together as a family in the eternities. They may also receive godhood and their own planet to populate for eternity as god has done with this place. These ordinances are also necessary for salvation.

Before a member can enter the temple they must qualify for a temple recommendation card. It is just like a membership card. In order to get this recommendation the member must meet certain requirements. Tithing is one of the requirements. A member must meet with the bishopric once a year for tithing settlement. In this meeting you provide documentation of your gross annual income and the church provides documentation of what you have paid currently. If you paid less than ten percent, you are required to pay in full. If you over paid, well then you just over paid and you won't get that back. Once tithing is settled, a member can apply for the temple recommend by meeting with a stake president. You are asked questions pertaining to tithing, sexual activity, living clean, modesty, the word of wisdom and other requirements before receiving a recommendation. If everything checks out then you may participate in the temple ordinances.

With the above stated, we can see that tithing is voluntary, but it is also obligatory if a member wants to receive the saving ordinances in the temple. In other words, the LDS church sells promises to its members. It requires full payment, as well as, member callings and other duties. You work for the church without compensation and you pay them. Your time and money are required from you if you want the promises being sold by the church. You may voluntarily decline, but you may not be a member for very long.

I find it amazing that the church can sell promises to its members. It speaks volumes on the mentality of the membership and their leaders. If you give your entire life to the church they "promise" you will be saved and have an eternal family with your own planet and godhood. It is like selling air!!!

Would you buy a promise? There are no guarantees to a promise, and promises can be broken. Especially, a promise for things that cannot be verified. The promises are also being sold by an organization that flip flops anytime they have to in order to stay in the green so to speak. Embarrassing facts are constantly brought up by the media and swept under the rug to avoid controversy and exposure.

So for your own sake pay your tithing and keep your eyes closed.

[sleepyhead]

Hello nickman,

I was a convert to LDS and I was only active for about a year. One thing I'm wondering about with regards to tithing is why they continue paying after they do all there temple ordinances. Suppose a person was a tbm for a year, and then went through the temple and did all the required ceremonies to ensure he obtains all of the eternal benefits which the ordinances provide. Why does he continue paying his tithing?

[Nickman]

Hello nickman,

I was a convert to LDS and I was only active for about a year. One thing I'm wondering about with regards to tithing is why they continue paying after they do all there temple ordinances. Suppose a person was a tbm for a year, and then went through the temple and did all the required ceremonies to ensure he obtains all of the eternal benefits which the ordinances provide. Why does he continue paying his tithing?

That is a really good question. When I was a member there was a guilt trip if I didnt pay tithing and a forfit of my blessing. That was from the bishop.

[kayky]

The LDS church is a system. The system is always right no matter what!
You cannot convince the system. The system doesn't care what your doubts are or if you have certain feelings. The system is designed to keep you in the herd through manipulation, guilt, and fear. You can never be right unless you follow the systems rules. If you do not follow the systems rules you will be expendable, unless they can manipulate, create fear, or guilt in you to make you shut up and follow the rules.

Here is an example;

The first sign of this system working to get you in is a tactic used by the missionaries. The missionaries ask you to read the BoM and to follow Moroni's promise located in Moroni 10:4.

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. [Moroni 10:4]

This challenge/promise is what brings in a lot of new converts. The Missionaries ask the member to take this challenge and they will get a "burning in the bosom" (whatever that is, sounds like hemmoroids). Many converts take the challenge and to no avail nothing happens as promised. The next thing that happens when the missionaries follow up is quite genius. I hope you can see the manipulation and the problem here. In the scenario below, Mary is the potential convert.

The missionaries stop by Mary's home and greet her at the door. She lets them in and they sit down for a discussion. "Have you had the time to follow Moroni's Challenge Mary?" "I have", Mary replies. "And what conclusion did you come to?", said one missionary. "I didn't feel anything", Mary replied. "You must have not been sincere enough, Mary." "But I was sincere and I prayed hard about it all night long", says Mary. "You must have not had enough faith" the missionaries reply. "but my faith is very strong and I was 100% honest and sincere in my prayer", "I wanted to know more than anything the truth". One missionary says, "You must have a certain sin in your life that is not resolved, get rid of whatever sins you are holding on to and you will receive this testimony." "I don't have any sins or feelings of guilt", says Mary. "You must try harder", one missionary says.

Can anyone see what has happened? The system (LDS Church) has made a promise to the potential convert Mary that if she follows A then B will happen. Mary does so to the "T". When asked about it she tells them nothing happened. The system is never wrong, so the system tells Mary she wasn't sincere. The system places the blame on Mary. She comes back with her innocence and honesty. The system is never wrong, it can't be wrong. The system tells her that she doesn't have faith enough and needs to acquire more. Mary begins to think that she is inadequate and the challenge becomes more of a passion and desire to prove them wrong, and that she can feel the burning in the bosom. The new convert is steps away from joining.

This is one way that the church uses to manipulate people into the church. Once your in, the tactics to hold you in get more crafty. Once the individual is in they become a shell of their former self. They follow the system and whatever it says, because no matter what the system says it is always right. If the system says that the sky is orange regardless of our own thinking process, the system is always right. Every problem has a manual to it. Every situation has a pamphlet. The members brain does not need to think. All information they need to follow the system is readily available and handed out.

Ward Teachers' Message published in the Improvement Era in June 1945

Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes, whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the "prophets, seers, and revelators" of the Church is cultivating the spirit of apostasy.... Lucifer ... wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak against their leaders and to "do their own thinking."... When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan—it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.
Journal of Discourses 11:107.

The system was made from the beginning to be the sole authority over it's members. You are not your own property, all the things you do are done in accordance to how they want you to. A tenth of your money is required or you cannot receive the promised blessings promised to you before joining. I bet you didn't see that coming. Open your eyes people.

This is up for debate if anyone wants to add or detract from it please do.

Ideas posted were from a Book I read called "The Double-Bind"

Wow, Nickman, I had no idea. This is scary stuff. I always politely send the missionaries away when they come to my door. I'm thinking now I might ask them in (for entertainment purposes).

[Jax Agnesson]

Nickman, what you describe here is so similar to other 'cults' it's amazing. I had a friend who was roped in by the Scientologists when he was going through a bad time. (His mother had disowned him, and an ex girlfriend had died the same year.) The way they kept him away from me and his other friends, the way they made him think his inability to get 'clear' was his own fault (engrams, IIRC, were his problem), the way they made him fork over a percentage of his wages every week... It sounds so similar. It took him a long time and a lot of misery to get himself out of their grip.
Some years earlier I knew a couple of women who had been in the Moonies for a while.. Again, a similar pattern of control by guilt, self-criticism and with-held approval. And some spooky afterlife promise of some sort, but I can't remember what that was..

But if you're a good Mormon you get to be the god of your own planet when you die!! That's far out, man! Do the women get the same?

[Nickman]

What is truth? Truth will always be true. Nothing can make the truth false. If you tell a lie somewhere down the road the truth will find its way to the surface.

When I was in the LDS church I remember one day when I was on a debate forum like this one defending the LDS faith using my FARMS or NEIL MAXWELL INSTITUTE websites for ammunition and defense. I was told a little gem of wisdom that changed me forever and led to my atheism. This gem came from a christian. They told me that truth will always overcome scrutiny. I thought about it and realized this is absolutely true. Something that is true will never be found false. Its a simple concept.

I thought to myself "I know the LDS church is true and JS was a prophet this will be easy". So I sought out to prove my beliefs to be true knowing they were already. If they were true then no matter what anyone said or showed me the truth of the restored gospel of jesus christ would show their folly.

I challenge the LDS community to do the same as well as any person on anything they come across.If you have the truth then test it yourself. If it is true as you have been told then there shouldn't be any anti material that could every prove your truth to be false. If the LDS or any other church has the truth revealed by the creator of the universe then you have an even greater truth backed by god and it by no means should ever be found to be false. So try it out. Do an honest study and research. Read anti material and pro material to see. Again, anti material should have no case against the truth revealed by the almighty god. Be honest in your study.

I promise this that if you do an honest study you will find the truth. Im not sayingbwhat that truth is but you will come to the truth on the subject at hand.

This simple truth made me the atheist I am today. Truth will always overcome scrutiny.

[sleepyhead]

This simple truth made me the atheist I am today. Truth will always overcome scrutiny.

Hello nickman,
What exactly was the simple truth that led you to athiesm? We had a discussion about Edgar Cayce a while back. How does his psychic abilities meld with your athiesm?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=18249

[dianaiad]

I claim that it is a fact that the LDS faith is 100% false and I will back it up. I will use know facts that are extra-biblical. As well as the bible. I am an atheist and a humanist just so you know my background. I was a christian for most of my life and LDS for several of those years and I live in mormon central, SLC.

In this thread please make contributions for or againts the arguement.

Joseph Smith is the trunk of the tree known as mormonism so if you cut him out you make the tree fall.

Joseph claimed he was visited after a sincere prayer asking what church was the true church. He said he was answered by god and jesus. The bible says no man hath seen god,

Are you talking about Exodus 33:20…which states that “Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me, and live?�

Fine…except that of course there is Exodus 24: 9-11, where we find this:
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

And Exodus 33:11, which states: And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
So…evidently one CAN ‘see the face of God’ …or any other part of Him He cares to show you.

Exodus 33: 23 (three verses after the bit about not being able to see His face, and live…you do believe in CONTEXT, right?)

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

:….but I don't believe in the bible

Then you are doubly in trouble. If you believed in it, you could use your own interpretation of it to defend it. However, since you have to treat it as nothing more than a book…and a book of fiction and semi-history at best, you ALSO have to deal with it as with any other book of fiction….and take all of it into consideration.
………..and you don’t even have to take the whole BIBLE (which is a collection of books, not just one) so. You only have to consider the book of Exodus.

…. so I will move forward. Later he was visited by moroni which was an angel three times in one night depending on which version you read. He was told about some plates which he would receive when he was old enough. Age was a big deal back then when it came to truth. He said he received the plates when the time was appointed and they were gold. Note that the weight of the plates would have been 30-60 lbs. There were eight witnesses to the plates which later were excommunicated. They never denied but their affiliation was suspicious. Four were Whitmers and friends of the Smith's. The others were Smiths. So two families associated well. The witness selection is very sketchy. Smith went to translate and his efforts were secret. On one occassion Martin harris wanted to prove to his wife that the money they had loaned was not used in vain and asked for the copies. Smith obliged after some prodding and low and behold the 116 copies were lost so moroni took the plates back from july to sept 1828. Those 116 pages were dismissed because Smith couldnt reproduce them or if he could then harris's wife would alter the originals making Smith a liar. Sounds like a backup plan or a latter day cover up.

It would, to someone predisposed to conspiracy theories and bitter toward the whole thing. Now take that natural bias of yours AGAINST the church, and think about the reaction of the folks around Joseph Smith at the time, the attacks that were made against him even then, and think about it. Just how likely WAS it that someone would ‘alter the originals?� Extremely likely, Probably, or almost certainly?

Ok past all that Joseph gave the plates back and could never produce them to anyone that could actually give any credit to them. What we are left with is the book of mormon, the most boring read I have ever come across.

Many people think so. Mark Twain called it “chloroform in print.�

OK, so far you have presented the old yawner about ‘not seeing God,’ and I did the counter-step. You have (and I do congratulate you on this part) succinctly boiled down the events of getting the BoM plates, and even come closer to the actual weight than most anti-Mormon critics. I’m actually impressed. You then give your conspiracy theory impression of the actions of some understandably nervous and suspicious people defending not only an unpopular new opinion, but the idea of NEW SCRIPTURE, and have called the Book of Mormon boring.

Well, the first time I read it, I have to admit that I agreed with you.

The problem is, Nickman, none of the above points prove, 100%, that “The LDS faith is false�

It was translated by a man with an eigth grade education and reads as such.

Now that’s opinion, not proof. Well, the formal eighth grade education part is true (actually, it’s more like third grade) but that the BoM ‘reads as such?� I WISH most eighth graders could read easily on that level! Just for kicks, I went to “Readabilityscore.com� and pasted the first chapter of the Book of Mormon into it in order to get the reading test scores. The results are as follows:

Readability Formula Grade Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 15.3
Gunning-Fog Score 17.8
Coleman-Liau Index 8.3
SMOG Index 9.4
Automated Readability Index 17.1
Average Grade Level 13.6

…….so you have a problem with your claim. ONE group figures the BoM at an 8th grade level, one at the 9th grade level…but the rest place the BoM squarely at the college level for the level of reading skills required.
Ah, well…..

theIt claims many things such as horses in south america, that werent there, spices and swords that were not there. Names of places that are not found.

Given that it took more than two thousand years to find Troy in a place that had a continuous history of occupation and an unbroken line of historical discourse, and given that we have only now sort of found where Sodom and Gommorah were (or that, frankly, skeptics have even considered that those cities may actually have existed) you are on very shaky ground in claiming that THIS is 100% proof that “the LDS faith is false.� In fact, so far you haven’t come up with evidence that would convince the most hide bound atheist that the LDS faith is 100% false. Opinion and presentation of things NOT found simply will not do that. After all, opinion is not proof, and we could always find something later.

With all this said the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Especially the facsimilies. These facsimilies were sold after Smiths death by his wife and lost for a while. Before and after that several Egyptologists reviewed them and reported as such all of which are sourced;

Wikipedia

Sometime in 1856, Theodule Deveria, an Egyptologist at the Louvre, had the opportunity to examine the facsimiles published as part of the Book of Abraham. [24] His interpretation, juxtaposed with Smith's interpretation, was published in T. B. H. Stenhouse's book The Rocky Mountain Saints: A Full and Complete History of the Mormons in 1873. [25] Additionally, later in 1912, Reverend Franklin S. Spalding sent copies of the three facsimiles to eight Egyptologists and semitists soliciting their interpretation of the facsimiles, the results of which were published in Spalding's work Joseph Smith, Jr. As a Translator. Deveria, and each of the eight scholars recognized the facsimiles as portions of ordinary funerary documents, and some harshly condemned Joseph Smith's interpretation: Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization." [26]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations" [27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No.[28]

The actual papyrus has was found... it is not what joseph translated. Joseph was a fraud but very smart. He made money from his followers. His legacy still does.

There is one problem. One small problem; yes, we do have part of the papyri from which the Book of Abraham was translated. However…we only have a small part. We have the ‘facsimiles..� but NOT THE TEXT. The majority, and I do mean almost ALL of it, was destroyed when the museum that held it burned down. Our most incendiary critics cannot dispute that…not that the text from which the Book of Abraham was burned, or that what we have now is, basically…just the illustrations and only two of those.
So how do YOU know, then, that those ‘facsimiles’ or ‘illustrations’ mean what you claim they do? Shoot, non-Mormon Egyptologists can’t agree on what they actually do mean, except that they will not admit that Joseph Smith may have gotten anything right even coincidentally. Why?
Because of course he was Joseph Smith and THEREFORE could not have been right on any detail, even coincidentally. When you look at this objectively, you can see a problem with this attitude; even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

To sum up…you have not proven, 100%, that the “LDS faith� is wrong. Indeed, all you have shown is that YOU THINK it’s wrong, and you think so because….you think so. That’s fine and all, but you are going to have to do better than trying to prove a bunch of negatives and presenting your very biased opinion to do this.

[Nickman]

This simple truth made me the atheist I am today. Truth will always overcome scrutiny.

Hello nickman,
What exactly was the simple truth that led you to athiesm? We had a discussion about Edgar Cayce a while back. How does his psychic abilities meld with your athiesm?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=18249

sleepyhead,
My atheism is strictly about gods hence the term. As far as Edgar Cayce there are some profound and awesome abilities there. I don't know how he was able to predict certain things. His prophecies were not like those of Nostradamus with vague open ended possibilities. It doesn't really meld or deter me from not believinging god.