Proving that Mormonism is false

[Nickman]

I claim that it is a fact that the LDS faith is 100% false and I will back it up. I will use know facts that are extra-biblical. As well as the bible. I am an atheist and a humanist just so you know my background. I was a christian for most of my life and LDS for several of those years and I live in mormon central, SLC.

In this thread please make contributions for or againts the arguement.

Joseph Smith is the trunk of the tree known as mormonism so if you cut him out you make the tree fall.

Joseph claimed he was visited after a sincere prayer asking what church was the true church. He said he was answered by god and jesus. The bible says no man hath seen god, but I don't believe in the bible so I will move forward. Later he was visited by moroni which was an angel three times in one night depending on which version you read. He was told about some plates which he would receive when he was old enough. Age was a big deal back then when it came to truth. He said he received the plates when the time was appointed and they were gold. Note that the weight of the plates would have been 30-60 lbs. There were eight witnesses to the plates which later were excommunicated. They never denied but their affiliation was suspicious. Four were Whitmers and friends of the Smith's. The others were Smiths. So two families associated well. The witness selection is very sketchy. Smith went to translate and his efforts were secret. On one occassion Martin harris wanted to prove to his wife that the money they had loaned was not used in vain and asked for the copies. Smith obliged after some prodding and low and behold the 116 copies were lost so moroni took the plates back from july to sept 1828. Those 116 pages were dismissed because Smith couldnt reproduce them or if he could then harris's wife would alter the originals making Smith a liar. Sounds like a backup plan or a latter day cover up.

Ok past all that Joseph gave the plates back and could never produce them to anyone that could actually give any credit to them. What we are left with is the book of mormon, the most boring read I have ever come across. It was translated by a man with an eigth grade education and reads as such. It claims many things such as horses in south america, that werent there, spices and swords that were not there. Names of places that are not found.

With all this said the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Especially the facsimilies. These facsimilies were sold after Smiths death by his wife and lost for a while. Before and after that several Egyptologists reviewed them and reported as such all of which are sourced;

Wikipedia

Sometime in 1856, Theodule Deveria, an Egyptologist at the Louvre, had the opportunity to examine the facsimiles published as part of the Book of Abraham. [24] His interpretation, juxtaposed with Smith's interpretation, was published in T. B. H. Stenhouse's book The Rocky Mountain Saints: A Full and Complete History of the Mormons in 1873. [25] Additionally, later in 1912, Reverend Franklin S. Spalding sent copies of the three facsimiles to eight Egyptologists and semitists soliciting their interpretation of the facsimiles, the results of which were published in Spalding's work Joseph Smith, Jr. As a Translator. Deveria, and each of the eight scholars recognized the facsimiles as portions of ordinary funerary documents, and some harshly condemned Joseph Smith's interpretation: Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization." [26]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations" [27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No.[28]

The actual papyrus has was found... it is not what joseph translated. Joseph was a fraud but very smart. He made money from his followers. His legacy still does.

[Nickman]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

Here is a good video explaining the whole thing.

[PREEST]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

Here is a good video explaining the whole thing.

Christopher Hitchens Did an excellent talk on mormonism. You should look it up.

The mormons are one of the most ridiculous group of people ever. They are incredibly gullable, and actually believe the claims of a fraud, fanatic, deluded, irrational Joseph Smith.

If someone made similar claims now I am sure they would pass the man off as insane. Joseph Smith was an evil man, who deceived people. Mormons are deluded and ignorant and should never be given legitimacy.

[Nickman]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

Here is a good video explaining the whole thing.

Christopher Hitchens Did an excellent talk on mormonism. You should look it up.

The mormons are one of the most ridiculous group of people ever. They are incredibly gullable, and actually believe the claims of a fraud, fanatic, deluded, irrational Joseph Smith.

If someone made similar claims now I am sure they would pass the man off as insane. Joseph Smith was an evil man, who deceived people. Mormons are deluded and ignorant and should never be given legitimacy.

I appreciate your opinion but you may want to stray away from such bold and rude statements. Thats if you wanna stay on this forum. I agree for some of your post but I didnt want to go that far. Joseph is more than jesus to the lds and thats a fact. He is said to be among god and jesus as a judge. I wouldnt want his 1830 non education judgement on me. God would be nuts to use js as a judge

[McCulloch]

I find the claims of Mormonism not any better or worse than the claims of literalist Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Bahá'í, Sikhism or Judaism. They are newer than some, so we know a bit more of the character of its founder, but otherwise claims of miraculous revelations from the gods are all equally invalid to me.

[Moses Yoder]

I claim that it is a fact that the LDS faith is 100% false and I will back it up. I will use know facts that are extra-biblical. As well as the bible. I am an atheist and a humanist just so you know my background. I was a christian for most of my life and LDS for several of those years and I live in mormon central, SLC.

In this thread please make contributions for or againts the arguement.

Joseph Smith is the trunk of the tree known as mormonism so if you cut him out you make the tree fall.

You have not shown this to be true. I believe Mormons think God is the trunk of their religion and Jospeh Smith was just a prophet. Also, Joseph Smith is dead and rotted, so it would be pretty hard to cut him up.

Joseph claimed he was visited after a sincere prayer asking what church was the true church. He said he was answered by god and jesus. The bible says no man hath seen god, but I don't believe in the bible so I will move forward

.
So youare not challenging that statement and not providing any evidence to the contrary.

Later he was visited by moroni which was an angel three times in one night depending on which version you read. He was told about some plates which he would receive when he was old enough. Age was a big deal back then when it came to truth. He said he received the plates when the time was appointed and they were gold. Note that the weight of the plates would have been 30-60 lbs.

I see no refutation here. There is more than 30 pounds of gold in the world, thus Joseph Smith's claim could have been possible.

There were eight witnesses to the plates which later were excommunicated. They never denied but their affiliation was suspicious. Four were Whitmers and friends of the Smith's. The others were Smiths. So two families associated well. The witness selection is very sketchy.

I do not see you anywhere refuting these claims or providing evidence to the contrary. You seem to believe the plates actually did exist and there were eight witnesses.

Smith went to translate and his efforts were secret. On one occassion Martin harris wanted to prove to his wife that the money they had loaned was not used in vain and asked for the copies. Smith obliged after some prodding and low and behold the 116 copies were lost so moroni took the plates back from july to sept 1828. Those 116 pages were dismissed because Smith couldnt reproduce them or if he could then harris's wife would alter the originals making Smith a liar. Sounds like a backup plan or a latter day cover up.

The only thing I see here is your personal opinion that this was a backup plan or coverup with no evidence provided.

Ok past all that Joseph gave the plates back and could never produce them to anyone that could actually give any credit to them. What we are left with is the book of mormon, the most boring read I have ever come across. It was translated by a man with an eigth grade education and reads as such. It claims many things such as horses in south america, that werent there, spices and swords that were not there. Names of places that are not found.

Here we are left with your personal opinion that the book of Mormon is boring and mentions some things in some areas that weren't there, with no mention of what those things were or documentation that they were not there.

With all this said the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Especially the facsimilies. These facsimilies were sold after Smiths death by his wife and lost for a while. Before and after that several Egyptologists reviewed them and reported as such all of which are sourced;

Wikipedia

Sometime in 1856, Theodule Deveria, an Egyptologist at the Louvre, had the opportunity to examine the facsimiles published as part of the Book of Abraham. [24] His interpretation, juxtaposed with Smith's interpretation, was published in T. B. H. Stenhouse's book The Rocky Mountain Saints: A Full and Complete History of the Mormons in 1873. [25] Additionally, later in 1912, Reverend Franklin S. Spalding sent copies of the three facsimiles to eight Egyptologists and semitists soliciting their interpretation of the facsimiles, the results of which were published in Spalding's work Joseph Smith, Jr. As a Translator. Deveria, and each of the eight scholars recognized the facsimiles as portions of ordinary funerary documents, and some harshly condemned Joseph Smith's interpretation: Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization." [26]

Here you give me an interesting quote, saying the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Exactly what do you mean by damnable? Then you have a Wikipedia quote. I will give you the benefit of the doubt since you are new here but Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Some people believe the sources given at the ends of the articles on Wiki are good sources, but if you went to court with a Wiki article you would get laughed out of court.

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations" [27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No.[28]

The actual papyrus has was found... it is not what joseph translated. Joseph was a fraud but very smart. He made money from his followers. His legacy still does.

Here apparently you have several pediatricians commenting on something they are not qualified to assess.

I counter your arguments with my belief that the Mormon religion is in fact very real, is active today with many members, and present as evidence this website;

mormon.org

[sleepyhead]

There were eight witnesses to the plates which later were excommunicated. They never denied but their affiliation was suspicious. Four were Whitmers and friends of the Smith's. The others were Smiths. So two families associated well.

Hello Nickman,

I was also LDS, active for about a year, and inactive a few more. This was all back 40 years ago. I just recently (within the last few years) came to the conclusion that the BOM was not historically accurate. I believed in the historicity all those years because of the witness statement. Then it was pointed out that all the witness names were printed rather than signed. I ordered the kindle edition of the 1830 BOM and the names were also printed. I just recently found a signed copy of the witness statrements at
http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperDetai ... t-1829?p=1
and
http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperDetai ... t-1829?p=1
but whether these are forgeries or not I don't know. It's obvious that all the names were signed by one person.

[PREEST]

I claim that it is a fact that the LDS faith is 100% false and I will back it up. I will use know facts that are extra-biblical. As well as the bible. I am an atheist and a humanist just so you know my background. I was a christian for most of my life and LDS for several of those years and I live in mormon central, SLC.

In this thread please make contributions for or againts the arguement.

Joseph Smith is the trunk of the tree known as mormonism so if you cut him out you make the tree fall.

You have not shown this to be true. I believe Mormons think God is the trunk of their religion and Jospeh Smith was just a prophet. Also, Joseph Smith is dead and rotted, so it would be pretty hard to cut him up.

Joseph claimed he was visited after a sincere prayer asking what church was the true church. He said he was answered by god and jesus. The bible says no man hath seen god, but I don't believe in the bible so I will move forward

.
So youare not challenging that statement and not providing any evidence to the contrary.

Later he was visited by moroni which was an angel three times in one night depending on which version you read. He was told about some plates which he would receive when he was old enough. Age was a big deal back then when it came to truth. He said he received the plates when the time was appointed and they were gold. Note that the weight of the plates would have been 30-60 lbs.

I see no refutation here. There is more than 30 pounds of gold in the world, thus Joseph Smith's claim could have been possible.

There were eight witnesses to the plates which later were excommunicated. They never denied but their affiliation was suspicious. Four were Whitmers and friends of the Smith's. The others were Smiths. So two families associated well. The witness selection is very sketchy.

I do not see you anywhere refuting these claims or providing evidence to the contrary. You seem to believe the plates actually did exist and there were eight witnesses.

Smith went to translate and his efforts were secret. On one occassion Martin harris wanted to prove to his wife that the money they had loaned was not used in vain and asked for the copies. Smith obliged after some prodding and low and behold the 116 copies were lost so moroni took the plates back from july to sept 1828. Those 116 pages were dismissed because Smith couldnt reproduce them or if he could then harris's wife would alter the originals making Smith a liar. Sounds like a backup plan or a latter day cover up.

The only thing I see here is your personal opinion that this was a backup plan or coverup with no evidence provided.

Ok past all that Joseph gave the plates back and could never produce them to anyone that could actually give any credit to them. What we are left with is the book of mormon, the most boring read I have ever come across. It was translated by a man with an eigth grade education and reads as such. It claims many things such as horses in south america, that werent there, spices and swords that were not there. Names of places that are not found.

Here we are left with your personal opinion that the book of Mormon is boring and mentions some things in some areas that weren't there, with no mention of what those things were or documentation that they were not there.

With all this said the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Especially the facsimilies. These facsimilies were sold after Smiths death by his wife and lost for a while. Before and after that several Egyptologists reviewed them and reported as such all of which are sourced;

Wikipedia

Sometime in 1856, Theodule Deveria, an Egyptologist at the Louvre, had the opportunity to examine the facsimiles published as part of the Book of Abraham. [24] His interpretation, juxtaposed with Smith's interpretation, was published in T. B. H. Stenhouse's book The Rocky Mountain Saints: A Full and Complete History of the Mormons in 1873. [25] Additionally, later in 1912, Reverend Franklin S. Spalding sent copies of the three facsimiles to eight Egyptologists and semitists soliciting their interpretation of the facsimiles, the results of which were published in Spalding's work Joseph Smith, Jr. As a Translator. Deveria, and each of the eight scholars recognized the facsimiles as portions of ordinary funerary documents, and some harshly condemned Joseph Smith's interpretation: Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization." [26]

Here you give me an interesting quote, saying the book of Abraham is the most damnable. Exactly what do you mean by damnable? Then you have a Wikipedia quote. I will give you the benefit of the doubt since you are new here but Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Some people believe the sources given at the ends of the articles on Wiki are good sources, but if you went to court with a Wiki article you would get laughed out of court.

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations" [27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No.[28]

The actual papyrus has was found... it is not what joseph translated. Joseph was a fraud but very smart. He made money from his followers. His legacy still does.

Here apparently you have several pediatricians commenting on something they are not qualified to assess.

I counter your arguments with my belief that the Mormon religion is in fact very real, is active today with many members, and present as evidence this website;

mormon.org

You counter the arguments by linking us to a mormon website? What is this? It's merely a website for mormons. How do you counter any good argument with this?

A question if I may, if christians refuse to accept Joseph smith as a profit then what will become of them?

You do realise jesus said that he is the word and anyone who tries to speak as if from god is a fraud or a false idol? You do know that Joseph Smith was a fraud and a liar?

[Moses Yoder]

You counter the arguments by linking us to a mormon website? What is this? It's merely a website for mormons. How do you counter any good argument with this?

A question if I may, if christians refuse to accept Joseph smith as a profit then what will become of them?

You do realise jesus said that he is the word and anyone who tries to speak as if from god is a fraud or a false idol? You do know that Joseph Smith was a fraud and a liar?

You admit then that Mormons exist!? In the OP, the poster claims that Mormon is a false religion. I claim that they do in fact exist. You admitted that they exist by saying a "mormon" website. So it is in fact a true religion, not a false religion.

[kayky]

I could so identify with the young family at the end of the video. When you are born into a religion and taught your entire life that it is the truth, it takes a great deal of courage to walk away.

I had a similar experience with my fundamentalist Christian upbringing. I was pleased to see that the young couple, although they had every reason to, had not given up on religious faith.