but you see [or don't] that what I am discussing is that the division of Judaism AND of Christianity PROVES that NETHER is the Truth of God ... and indeed the scriptures easily confirm that ... this is a worthy discussion point then that obviates your dogmatic approach ... indeed Jesus points out BUT CHRISTIANITY DOES NOT , nor does Judaism, that the scripture states that God does ALL the teaching, men can at best only persuade men to stop sinning so that God can teach themcnorman18 wrote: Donâ€™t come around here much any more -- I look in, but havenâ€™t seen anything going on that I find at all interesting -- but I was tipped off to this post. Not much to say on this -- itâ€™s nothing new either, but since I was invited, I thought Iâ€™d offer a short response and a correction or two.First correction, from the forum rules posted as a sticky in every subforum here:Raimi Stranger wrote: [Replying to post 1 by cnorman18]
this is actually a debate forum, that is the rule here and stated clearlycnorman18 wrote: This is a reedited version of one of my first posts on this forum, from five years ago. I think it bears repeating.
A word before I begin:
This post is NOT an attack on Christianity; nor is this post an invitation to debate.
â€œThe forum is in two main categories - the Debate category and the Discussion category. All debates belong in the debate category. .... All discussions belong in the discussion category. Any debates in the discussion subforums will either be moved or deleted.â€�
In other words: There are debate subfora, and there are discussion subfora. This is a discussion subforum.
Further: the guidelines to the Judaism forum explicitly state that the purpose of this subforum is â€œto discuss and debate Jewish topics and issues. This sub-forum assumes the ongoing validity of Judaism; anyone can post here, but it's not the place to discuss, for example, whether Christianity has supplanted Judaism or ought to.â€�
Seems clear enough to me. Whether or not you or anyone else considers Judaism to be true or valid is of no consequence. This isnâ€™t the place to debate that subject. Period.
this is then a WORTHY scriptural Truith of God wholly relevant to your very dogmatic approach, scripture even of the 'OT', the Torah and Prophets, shows you are mistaken, Jesus used only the Torah and Prophets to prove to many Jews as a Jew what God says...
surely that scripture is worthy of discussion here as it disproves all you claim here
and i do not doubt your dogmatic faith in Judaism nor question it, but simply wish to discuss your contradiction of the Torah and Prophets that you likely assume you respect ... for I know the scripture refutes Christian dogma too and have no desire to discuss that here any more than to state that my position is NOT mainline apostate Christianity at all , I do NOT accept their abuse of the scripture either, but rejecting their delusions does not justify yours ... so indeed by the overarching rule of the site, it is a matter of valid discussion , whatever you write here... this is a discussion site and you must therefore JUSTIFY what you say against the scripture you say you believe in BY RIGHT of using this site ...a DISCUSSION site, NOT a place for your preaching potentially-proselytising dogma without justification or discussion ... read all the site rules and understand the very spirit of this site is against unsupported [and indeed scripturally unsupportable] dogma
and there is GOOD REASON from God for that , God will do ALL the teaching of Israel Himself, NOT Jews, not even scripture, but SPIRIT ...
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God
so READ Jeremiah and weep for the delusion of Israel by its hierarchy -Jer 31:30-34
then you may understand there is indeed value in discussion and no-one even can know God by written dogma...
First, that assumes that everyone agrees that something can be â€œproved from scripturesâ€� (and BTW, quoting the NT to a Jew is rather like quoting the Baghavad-Gita to a Navajo. You might as well quote Moby Dick. Itâ€™s of no interest to us).,,,,and it is easily proven from scriptures accepted by BOTH Jews and Christians, that neither Judaism nor Christianity is of Jesus Christ... so you are mistaken at the onset and need reproof to scripture of God ...
Well you are scripturally mistaken at the outset then, as that is not the assumption at all, rather God Himself does teach all things HIMSELF to Israel's children [but they are not all Jews, most never were Jews -, never accepted Judaism - [but ALL are now forgiven Jer 31:30-34 who stop disobeying God with sin and turn to Love ]
Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
note this is the House of Israel , not Jews accepting Judaism, and they continue in idol-worship until saints reach them and suggest trying Love of God instead... note that the idol-worshipping House of Israel is also forgiven - Jer 31:30-34, not just the Jews, and that they were and are] the majority of Israel, living as gentiles worldwide and scattered there long before the Jews ...
well I didn't , but Jesus is indeed of the tribe of Judah, of the House of Judah and certainly is a Jew... though he reproached the Jewish authorities for their sisn against the Jews , notably the widows not being cared for and the dogmas of apostate Judaism applied unlovingly in detail whilst the over-arching requirement of Love by God was being ignored...Second, who ever said that Judaism is â€œof Jesus Christâ€�?
well my friend, Jesus and all his early disciples are indeed Jews and express their disagreement to what you claim IN WRITING and revelation of God, so you are deeply mistaken there again... and indeed there are many [albeit mostly misguided] 'Messianic Jews' who tragically believe in the false image of Christ of Christianity, but they are demonstrably Jews and they do NOT agree with you, you do NOT speak for them...Third, whether or not Christianity is â€œof Jesus Christâ€� is of no interest to me or any other Jew (and, yes, on that matter as well as many others I CAN speak for all Jews).
so your claim is false, and it is truly the very basis of this site that EVERYONE speaks for THEMSELVES... you are NOT in a position to rightly assume that you speak for ANY other without first knowing them completely, and only God can give that knowledge which you already show you do not have... as is proven by your false claim, proven false above...
I offer you the authority of the scripture that you supposedly respect as a Judaist... NOT my authority but that of God which I simply convey to you in potential reproof by God, not by me...Finally, though your opinion may be that I am â€œmistaken,â€� that opinion is not necessarily a fact; and therefore I donâ€™t think itâ€™s your place to offer me or anyone else â€œreproof.â€� That implies an authority that you do not have and have no right to claim.
so you are simply creating straw-men my friend , I never have claimed authority of myself, unlike you... who equally does not have it... so use your own words to question your own dogmatic statements against your own scripture and please reconsider using straw-men as discussion, it wastes everyone's time
not even close my friend...Okay, I think that will do.
you are not alone, very few indeed have any interest in having their dogma questioned by God's scriptures they pay only lip-service to ... but in fact the scriptures are given for reproof of such as you too :-I read the rest of your post, and find little of interest in it.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
do you think that excludes the possibility that they are both mistaken ? ... the Jewish scripture explains the apostasy of the Jewish hierarchy in detail and it is unsurprising that they do not teach those parts of it, but leave them out, even the new covenant with Israel which could hardly be more important, that God forgives all Israel who begin to obey His Law of Love, stop sinning against mankind and themselves... Jer 31:30-34 ... God will do the teaching, NOT MEN... but God cannot force any man to Love, Love must be given freely, so God cannot help any man who refuses God's Law of Love and continues to sin -e.g, Ezek 18:20-24I'll close with a saying from the Talmud. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right--or why we both were."
I would NEVER speak for God, which is why I always , unlike you, use the scripture instead of pretending my words are authority as you do without humility you Love to give lip-service to ... why do you not apply your rules to your own words ? why do you hate the scripture so much that you decry it and claim I said it ?... it was written for you to, and long before I was even born... you 'shoot the messenger' of God's message, but my friend it is God who inspired the words of scripture I point out, NOT ME !The REASON the rabbis took that position was simply that NONE OF THEM FELT QUALIFIED TO SPEAK FOR GOD. That rather elementary bit of humility seems to have escaped you.
However "clear" that is to you, it is again a straw-man and I never said any such thing and you really cannot speak for me or anyone else, nor is there any need to do so... rather there is a GREAT NEED that you STOP speaking for others because you keep telling lies about what they say and believe, and it wastes everyone's time, false witness, a sin against God and men... so I require your apology and will easily forgive you if you repent and STOP doing itAs many others have, you are clearly claiming here that BOTH Judaism, whatever that word means to you, and Christianity, are flatly wrong; and that YOU and ONLY YOU understand the Bible and the thoughts of God.
I have NEVER claimed to be the ONLY one who understands scripture ... and you KNOW that , so lie even to yourself in writing it ...
and God has no thoughts, but the spirit is COMMITTED to revealing all Truth to Israel when any of Israel prepare themselves to receive all Truth [first all Truth about themselves, their hidden sins for instance] from God Himself :-
all YOU need to do to understand that to YOUR satisfaction is to read the scripture you claim to believe , the new covenant -Jer 31:30-34- not that much to read, not that much to ask that you SEE are NOT MY WORDS , but God's inspired words to ALL Israel, both Jews and the lost sheep of the House of Israel of YOUR accepted scripture
simply denial of scripture of God my friend , but you are not alone ... not by a long measure of God against all corrupted creeds of the false authority of men against God's own scriptures... that is why the new covenant offers teaching by God Himself, not men :-Seen it before. Not interested. Have a nice day.
Jeremiah, prophet of God 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.