Islam The Compassionate Way Of Life

[HaLi8993]

God cannot be compared to mankind, hence His actions cannot be questioned. God is Fair, Just, Wise and All- Knowing. Therefore whatever He the Almighty does, is due to a legitimate reason and purpose although we may not be able to understand just why.  

A loving Mother may be forced to place her child under the knife for surgery due to a particular disease however there is no doubt she loves her child. Yet to those that do not understand the circumstances this is seen as cruel. It is God that is All-Knowing hence it is not for any of his creatures to question his doings but rather we will be questioned for ours.

So what then gives individuals the right to place their limited understandings above that of God, instead of trusting their Creator and believing and submitting with full conviction to His will. Instead mankind is arrogant and proud denying and believing that he is above the Creator in knowledge and understanding when God is the One that is the Creator of all that exists.

[Divine Insight]

So what then gives individuals the right to place their limited understandings above that of God, instead of trusting their Creator and believing and submitting with full conviction to His will. Instead mankind is arrogant and proud denying and believing that he is above the Creator in knowledge and understanding when God is the One that is the Creator of all that exists.

This is incorrect thinking on your behalf.

Do I believe in the Greek fables of Zeus?

If not, am I then being arrogant and proud in thinking that I know better than Zeus?

This same principle applies to the Hebrew or Abrahamic fables of God.

People who do not believe in these fables are not suggesting that they are above any creator in knowledge or understanding. They are simply saying that they don't believe that the fables in question have anything to do with any God.

That is certainly my position on the God of Abraham and any related religions.

When I point out what I consider to be utter absurdities in these God myths, I'm not suggesting that the God actually exists and is stupid, but rather I'm suggesting that the myths themselves are not intelligent enough to have come from any God in the first place.

I just came from another thread where we were discussing one of the foundational things that are claimed in these religions.

This God supposedly creates a dog-eat-dog world that is infested with disease and he proclaims that this is "Good".

To me, that's already a red flag that these stories are nothing more than superstitious fables.

Why would a supposedly all-wise, benevolent God who can supposedly do anything he wants without bound create a dog-eat-dog world, infest it with disease, and call that "Good"?

I'm not challenging the "wisdom" of any such God. I'm simply saying that, to me, it makes no sense that an all-wise unlimited supreme being would do such a thing and refer to it as being "Good".

So this has nothing at all to do with arrogance or pride on my part. I'm simply dismissing what I see as unquestionable superstitions that simply have no merit.

That's all.

And I'm not even an atheist. I believe in the Eastern Mystical view of God which has sound and reasonable explanations for why the world is the way it is.

So for me, these are just reasons for dismissing the Hebrew mythologies of God as having no more merit than the Greek mythologies of Zeus and company.

It has nothing at all to do with arrogance or pride. It has to do with sound reasoning and sanity.

[HaLi8993]

This is incorrect thinking on your behalf.

Do I believe in the Greek fables of Zeus?

If not, am I then being arrogant and proud in thinking that I know better than Zeus?

This same principle applies to the Hebrew or Abrahamic fables of God.

People who do not believe in these fables are not suggesting that they are above any creator in knowledge or understanding. They are simply saying that they don't believe that the fables in question have anything to do with any God.

That is certainly my position on the God of Abraham and any related religions.

When I point out what I consider to be utter absurdities in these God myths, I'm not suggesting that the God actually exists and is stupid, but rather I'm suggesting that the myths themselves are not intelligent enough to have come from any God in the first place.

I just came from another thread where we were discussing one of the foundational things that are claimed in these religions.

This God supposedly creates a dog-eat-dog world that is infested with disease and he proclaims that this is "Good".

To me, that's already a red flag that these stories are nothing more than superstitious fables.

Why would a supposedly all-wise, benevolent God who can supposedly do anything he wants without bound create a dog-eat-dog world, infest it with disease, and call that "Good"?

I'm not challenging the "wisdom" of any such God. I'm simply saying that, to me, it makes no sense that an all-wise unlimited supreme being would do such a thing and refer to it as being "Good".

So this has nothing at all to do with arrogance or pride on my part. I'm simply dismissing what I see as unquestionable superstitions that simply have no merit.

That's all.

And I'm not even an atheist. I believe in the Eastern Mystical view of God which has sound and reasonable explanations for why the world is the way it is.

So for me, these are just reasons for dismissing the Hebrew mythologies of God as having no more merit than the Greek mythologies of Zeus and company.

It has nothing at all to do with arrogance or pride. It has to do with sound reasoning and sanity.

The Greek "fables" of Zeus are exactly that, "fables", however believing in the One true God is no fable. Hence to place ones limited Knowledge and  understanding over the truth is being arrogant of the truth. Believing that one knows better than what God has commanded as well as God's ultimate Knowledge of the future and the unseen, which no mortal has seen, heard or is a witness too is indeed having a sense of pride.

What evidence do you have that Islam is a fable?? and that Prophets and Messengers were fables and that the miracles and Message they came with were fables?? I would be interested to know your thoughts on this matter.

People who reject the true Message of God are placing themselves above the Creator in knowledge, because they believe that other beliefs or ideologies
or philosophies etc, are true instead of what God has sent to mankind. Therefore they are placing this unauthorized knowledge above that of the Creator hence placing themselves above the Creators Knowledge with false beliefs and questioning that have no basis. Furthermore by using their own intellect, whims and desires to speak on behalf of God. God is the only One that knows the truth about everything so who then are we Creatures that have been created by God to say that something is wrong or right? For example if I am the Creator of a car only I would be aware of the mechanisms involved in such a unique device, how it works, it's purpose, etc...we all go through instances in life where by we give something up or don't do a particular thing only to find out later that if we were to actually have done that thing then there would have been a different outcome. Hence only God is All-Knowing of what will happen before it happens.

There is wisdom in everything that God allows to happen on Earth even though we might not know the reason why something happens, we plan but God is the best of planners. There are many reasons why bad things according to our understanding happens, to believe that just because there is disease existent on Earth cannot mean that these are fables nor can we question what God does or does not do, good things stem from disease such as prevention for future generations, or appreciation of Heath and aiding those in need, we would not appreciate the good without knowing the bad. Everything that happens is a test.

So can I just ask why you believe these are superstitions?? What Easten Mystical God do you believe in??  

[Divine Insight]

The Greek "fables" of Zeus are exactly that, "fables", however believing in the One true God is no fable. Hence to place ones limited Knowledge and  understanding over the truth is being arrogant of the truth. Believing that one knows better than what God has commanded as well as God's ultimate Knowledge of the future and the unseen, which no mortal has seen, heard or is a witness too is indeed having a sense of pride.

As far as I'm concerned the Hebrew "fables" of God are exactly that, "fables".

How do you justify your claim that they aren't just fables?

You talk about "pride", but from my perspective you're just demanding "pride" in a religion of your choice.

By the way, which religion do you believe in?

Your thread is entitled "Islam The Compassionate Way of Life".

Do you believe in the Christian Jesus as the only begotten Son of God?

If not, why not? Do you believe the stories of Jesus are 'just fables'.

What evidence do you have that Islam is a fable?? and that Prophets and Messengers were fables and that the miracles and Message they came with were fables?? I would be interested to know your thoughts on this matter.

I've never studied Islam specifically, but I do know that is just an offshoot of the same fables that are the foundation of Judaism. Islam is considered to be one of the many fragmented rumors of the God of Abraham.

If Islam is indeed based on the same creation fables of Adam and Eve and mankind's fall from grace, etc., of the Old Testament or Torah, then I have countless reasons why I consider it to be fables that have no divine merit whatsoever.

People who reject the true Message of God are placing themselves above the Creator in knowledge, because they believe that other beliefs or ideologies
or philosophies etc, are true instead of what God has sent to mankind.

I would agree with you if that were true. However, I'm not rejecting any "True Message of God". I'm rejecting what I see as man-made superstitious fables that clearly aren't anywhere nearly intelligent enough to have come from any all-wise creator.

I don't mean to be rude, but it is my honest and sincere opinion that the things attributed to the Abrahamic God are simply far too stupid to even remotely be considered as having any merit at all. And this is how I can easily know that those fables aren't a message from any divine supreme being.

Therefore they are placing this unauthorized knowledge above that of the Creator hence placing themselves above the Creators Knowledge with false beliefs and questioning that have no basis.

My questioning has plenty of basis. So what you speak of here is false.

Furthermore by using their own intellect, whims and desires to speak on behalf of God.

I don't claim to speak on behalf of God.

On the contrary, you are the one who is doing that. You are the one who is claiming to know that the Hebrew Fables are the "Word of God"

So you are the one who desires to speak on behalf of God, not me.

God is the only One that knows the truth about everything so who then are we Creatures that have been created by God to say that something is wrong or right? For example if I am the Creator of a car only I would be aware of the mechanisms involved in such a unique device, how it works, it's purpose, etc...we all go through instances in life where by we give something up or don't do a particular thing only to find out later that if we were to actually have done that thing then there would have been a different outcome. Hence only God is All-Knowing of what will happen before it happens.

You were either born into a specific religion, or chose to personally believe in it on faith for whatever reasons.

That does not make it true.

You speak of arrogance and pride, but yet that is precisely what you are exhibiting. You are arrogantly proclaiming to have pride in your choice of religion by demanding that it's the only true religion of God.

And then you accuse other people of being arrogant and proud if they refuse to adopt your beliefs.

There is wisdom in everything that God allows to happen on Earth even though we might not know the reason why something happens, we plan but God is the best of planners.

I see no reason to believe that based on the Biblical fables of God. Those stories depict a God who is constantly having problems with his creation. He tries to solve all his problems using crude and violent methods, yet he never actually solves the problem of sin. He sure doesn't appear to be a very good planner in those fables.

Did you know that at one point he had to drown out the whole planet save for a few individuals? According to the Christians he had to have his only begotten son nailed to a pole.

He those are the kinds of plans he makes I'm not impressed.

There are many reasons why bad things according to our understanding happens, to believe that just because there is disease existent on Earth cannot mean that these are fables nor can we question what God does or does not do, good things stem from disease such as prevention for future generations, or appreciation of Heath and aiding those in need, we would not appreciate the good without knowing the bad. Everything that happens is a test.

That is all covered very well in the spiritual philosophies that I already have. The spiritual philosophies that I have adopted are truly wise, and therefore they do have the possibility of being "TRUTH" about a potential mystical God.

So can I just ask why you believe these are superstitions??

Just follow my posts on these forums and you'll see endless reasons why I have come to that conclusion.

What Easten Mystical God do you believe in??  

The Eastern Mystical views I have adopted do not profess to know of any egotistical human-like jealous God like the God of Abraham.

It's a totally different concept entirely. Far beyond anything I would care to try to explain to someone in a few posts. Moreover it's not important to me that you adopt my views. If you prefer to believe in the Hebrew fables, more power to you. But I personally feel that for you to judge everyone who doesn't believe like you to be arrogant and filled with pride, is actually a negative aspect of your religion.

It's a shame that you have adopted a religion that causes you to view people who do not believe in your religion as having some sort of problem.

I don't think it's arrogant of you to believe in your religion. But I do feel that it's highly arrogant of you to accuse everyone who doesn't believe in your religion of being arrogant.

That's an oxymoron right there don't you think?

[HaLi8993]

As far as I'm concerned the Hebrew "fables" of God are exactly that, "fables". 

How do you justify your claim that they aren't just fables? 

You talk about "pride", but from my perspective you're just demanding "pride" in a religion of your choice. 

By the way, which religion do you believe in? 

Your thread is entitled "Islam The Compassionate Way of Life". 

Do you believe in the Christian Jesus as the only begotten Son of God? 

If not, why not? Do you believe the stories of Jesus are 'just fables'.

For a Religion to be the true Religion of God, it must come from God and come with the Message that none has the right to be worshipped but God, free from all polythestic beliefs. It should be a religion that protects it's people and gives rise to mercy & happiness to those who practice and believe in it. It should advocate the best of attitudes and actions and be a guidance for all of mankind. But most importantly it should not be self-contradictory, so it should not issue one command that is contradicted by another, or forbid something then allow something very similar for no reason. 

In Islam we can find these things, we also have what we call Hadith which are a chain of narrations that can be traced all the way back to the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself. When one practices Islam everything makes perfect sense. This is how I know that it is not any fable of such.

Can we agree that there is only One truth in life one way to our destination?? What do you mean by "demanding pride". I believe in the religion of Islam. In Islam we believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) to be a Prophet like all those who came to pass he was no different nor was the Message he came with, whicb was to proclaim and call people to the worship of One true God without associating any partners onto him. As Muslims we do not believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was God's son nor do we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sacrificed on the cross to have died for our sins.

I've never studied Islam specifically, but I do know that is just an offshoot of the same fables that are the foundation of Judaism. Islam is considered to be one of the many fragmented rumors of the God of Abraham. 

If Islam is indeed based on the same creation fables of Adam and Eve and mankind's fall from grace, etc., of the Old Testament or Torah, then I have countless reasons why I consider it to be fables that have no divine merit whatsoever.

If you have never studied Islam, then how can you come to this conclusion?? What makes you think they are fables?

I would agree with you if that were true. However, I'm not rejecting any "True Message of God". I'm rejecting what I see as man-made superstitious fables that clearly aren't anywhere nearly intelligent enough to have come from any all-wise creator. 

I don't mean to be rude, but it is my honest and sincere opinion that the things attributed to the Abrahamic God are simply far too stupid to even remotely be considered as having any merit at all. And this is how I can easily know that those fables aren't a message from any divine supreme being.

 

I agree, I also reject fables. But we have to look at the evidence at hand not just label something as a fable simply because it doesn't seem to coincide with our whims and desires. And what "we" believe to be true according to our own limited understanding of the universe. Once a religion is proven to be true, we have no say in the matter, we hear and obey and submit ourselves with full submission to the laws of All-Mighty God.

What exactly do you find stupid, give me an example. 

My questioning has plenty of basis. So what you speak of here is false.

What is it?

I don't claim to speak on behalf of God. 

On the contrary, you are the one who is doing that. You are the one who is claiming to know that the Hebrew Fables are the "Word of God" 

So you are the one who desires to speak on behalf of God, not me.

Nope, I never said that the Hebrew fables are the word of God, I'm saying that the Quran is the word of God. We don't speak on behalf of God in the sense where we question God and say He was wrong or this is not true etc...

You were either born into a specific religion, or chose to personally believe in it on faith for whatever reasons.

That does not make it true. 

You speak of arrogance and pride, but yet that is precisely what you are exhibiting. You are arrogantly proclaiming to have pride in your choice of religion by demanding that it's the only true religion of God. 

And then you accuse other people of being arrogant and proud if they refuse to adopt your beliefs.

 

Correct and agreed that does not make it true what makes it true is that it is free from all contradictions. I really can't see how I'm demanding pride lol, having a choice in a matter and following the true religion of God doesn't mean you demand pride does it?? 

I see no reason to believe that based on the Biblical fables of God. Those stories depict a God who is constantly having problems with his creation. He tries to solve all his problems using crude and violent methods, yet he never actually solves the problem of sin. He sure doesn't appear to be a very good planner in those fables. 

Did you know that at one point he had to drown out the whole planet save for a few individuals? According to the Christians he had to have his only begotten son nailed to a pole. 

He those are the kinds of plans he makes I'm not impressed.

I can't really comment if I don't know what you are talking about, can you kindly give me some examples please, thanks 

As Muslims we don't believe that God would humiliate a Prophet in such a way, hence Islam totally rejects this claim that Jesus (peace be upon him) was nailed to the cross.

Everything that happens is for a reason, to us it may seem cruel or bad but in fact it could be good but we know not. Only God is the One that is the Controller, Maintainer, Sustainer and Observer of all that exists. Therefore our limited understanding cannot comprehend the reason for certain things occurring. For example you loose your license yeah and then you get all depressed and can't seem to understand the reason behind it, a person would view this as something bad, but God is the one that ultimate planner, we have no control of the future. God may have taken your license away cause you would have probably had an accident that day if you had your license. Do you understand or not really?

That is all covered very well in the spiritual philosophies that I already have. The spiritual philosophies that I have adopted are truly wise, and therefore they do have the possibility of being "TRUTH" about a potential mystical God.

What do you believe in?

Just follow my posts on these forums and you'll see endless reasons why I have come to that conclusion.

Maybe other beliefs, but have you looked into Islam?

The Eastern Mystical views I have adopted do not profess to know of any egotistical human-like jealous God like the God of Abraham. 

It's a totally different concept entirely. Far beyond anything I would care to try to explain to someone in a few posts. Moreover it's not important to me that you adopt my views. If you prefer to believe in the Hebrew fables, more power to you. But I personally feel that for you to judge everyone who doesn't believe like you to be arrogant and filled with pride, is actually a negative aspect of your religion. 

It's a shame that you have adopted a religion that causes you to view people who do not believe in your religion as having some sort of problem. 

I don't think it's arrogant of you to believe in your religion. But I do feel that it's highly arrogant of you to accuse everyone who doesn't believe in your religion of being arrogant. 

That's an oxymoron right there don't you think?

As Muslims we don't believe that God is human like, I'm not understanding why you keep saying Hebrew fables. I haven't judged anyone as I am not in a position to do so. Only God will Judge us all. But I do believe that those who reject the truth do so out of arrogance and pride. Yes but where have I accused anyone. Believing in something and accusing someone is not the same, don't you think??

[Divine Insight]

If you have never studied Islam, then how can you come to this conclusion?? What makes you think they are fables?

I haven't studied it in-depth. But I know enough about it to understand that it's based on the same folklore as the Old Testament and is founded on the same foundational stories which I have already rejected as being inconsistent.

You say:

For a Religion to be the true Religion of God, it must come from God and come with the Message that none has the right to be worshipped but God, free from all polythestic beliefs. It should be a religion that protects it's people and gives rise to mercy & happiness to those who practice and believe in it. It should advocate the best of attitudes and actions and be a guidance for all of mankind. But most importantly it should not be self-contradictory, so it should not issue one command that is contradicted by another, or forbid something then allow something very similar for no reason.

To begin with where you do you come up with these criteria?

Who are you to say that it must be free from any polytheistic beliefs?

Who are you to demand that there only be one egotistical God?

Also you state, that most importantly it should not be self-contradictory.

As far as I'm concerned the fables of the Old Testament are as self-contradictory as fables can be. So on that point I will agree with you that any message from any God should not contain contradictions, thus I can rule out the Abrahamic picture of God.

I agree, I also reject fables. But we have to look at the evidence at hand not just label something as a fable simply because it doesn't seem to coincide with our whims and desires. And what "we" believe to be true according to our own limited understanding of the universe. Once a religion is proven to be true, we have no say in the matter, we hear and obey and submit ourselves with full submission to the laws of All-Mighty God.

What exactly do you find stupid, give me an example.

Many things.

These fables claim that this God created the world with the animals we see and saw that it was "Good". That stupid right there. Animals eat each other. There's nothing "Good" about that IMHO.

God would have also had to create all manner of disease on purpose. Again, something I wouldn't view as being "Good".

I also have huge problems with the original story of Adam and Eve and the supposed "Fall from Grace", and the way that the God of Abraham supposedly handled that situation.

I have problems with how he handled the Canaanites. I have problems with the idea that he supposedly gives someone "promised land" and yet has to ask them to conquer it via a war.

You said that there shouldn't be any contradictions. Well, a God who commands people not to kill one moment and then instructs them to kill people and take over their land is a huge contradiction.

Same thing goes with stoning sinners to death, killing heathens, etc.

These fables are riddled with contradictions.

Nope, I never said that the Hebrew fables are the word of God, I'm saying that the Quran is the word of God. We don't speak on behalf of God in the sense where we question God and say He was wrong or this is not true etc...

Well, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but the Quran is an offshoot of Hebrew Mythology.

Correct and agreed that does not make it true what makes it true is that it is free from all contradictions. I really can't see how I'm demanding pride lol, having a choice in a matter and following the true religion of God doesn't mean you demand pride does it??

Well you'd have a very hard time convincing me that it's free from contradictions. I hear that same nonsense from Jews and Christians about their versions of the religion too. But it's all just a bunch of hot air.

As Muslims we don't believe that God would humiliate a Prophet in such a way, hence Islam totally rejects this claim that Jesus (peace be upon him) was nailed to the cross.

Well, that's certainly something we can agree upon.

Maybe other beliefs, but have you looked into Islam?

I have no reason to consider Islam as a belief system. I can already see that it's based on the same egotistical and male-chauvinistic God as the Hebrew mythology. And it's based on the same original fables of a fall from grace, etc. all of which I reject as being "Divine" just as you reject the idea of Jesus being nailed to a pole as being "Divine".

I have no intuitive attraction to Islam.

Why would I consider something that I'm not even remotely attracted to.

If there exist a divine creator who has "One True Religion" that he wants me to believe in don't you think it would be up to him to "Guide" me to it at least in terms of intuitive feelings if nothing else.

Actually I feel "divinely guided" to the Eastern Mystical views that I already have. In fact, those views guided me to Wicca, which is even more profoundly spiritual for me.

As far as I'm concerned I already have a deep and meaningful relationship with the spiritual essence of reality.

So I'm not "looking" for anything.

As Muslims we don't believe that God is human like, I'm not understanding why you keep saying Hebrew fables. I haven't judged anyone as I am not in a position to do so. Only God will Judge us all. But I do believe that those who reject the truth do so out of arrogance and pride. Yes but where have I accused anyone. Believing in something and accusing someone is not the same, don't you think??

I've spoken with Jews who make the same claim. They claim that they too do not think of God as "human-like", yet in full-bloom contradiction to that in the next breath they speak about "God will Judge us all".

So they've contradicted themselves right there, just as you have.

A God who will "Judge us all" necessarily has to have a sentient ego in order to do that. Perhaps you don't understand that?

The Eastern mystics have recognized the error in that kind of thinking and have realized that a system of Karma makes far more sense. I agree with there views on that.

Moreover, Jesus, like Muslims and the Jews most likely didn't view God as a personified egotistical being either. When he said things like "I and the Father are one", he was no doubt referring to the Eastern mystical views that I have already adopted.

He even pointed to the Torah where it says, "Have I not said ye are gods?"

So from my perspective Jesus himself was a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva. People just didn't understand what he was saying is all.

So I'm already on the right path. I understand what Jesus was teaching, and there's no need to believe in an egoistical God who will judge people individually.

That is a "human-like" picture of God. Yet you claim to not support that picture at the very same time that you support it. That right there is a contradiction on your behalf.

[HaLi8993]

I haven't studied it in-depth. But I know enough about it to understand that it's based on the same folklore as the Old Testament and is founded on the same foundational stories which I have already rejected as being inconsistent.

I need more information, what exactly have you rejected?

To begin with where you do you come up with these criteria? 

Who are you to say that it must be free from any polytheistic beliefs? 

Who are you to demand that there only be one egotistical God? 

Also you state, that most importantly it should not be self-contradictory. 

As far as I'm concerned the fables of the Old Testament are as self-contradictory as fables can be. So on that point I will agree with you that any message from any God should not contain contradictions, thus I can rule out the Abrahamic picture of God.

What part of this criteria do you disagree with? I'm not saying that it should be free from polytheistic beliefs, God Himself is saying this. No where in the history of Religion has the Torah or the Injeel (original Gospel) proclaimed the worship of more than One God, the fundamental message was purely Monotheistic from day one, it is only the corruption of man that has given rise to such beliefs where people now a days believe in more than One God.

In Islam we believe that the original Torah and the Gospel were the true teachings sent by God, but what we have today are man-made laws hence there is no way of knowing if what we read today is from man or God, even though there may still exist within these books elements of truth. However Islam has been preserved by God hence not lost since day one confirming what came before it and a way of life chosen by God for all of mankind today.

Many things.

These fables claim that this God created the world with the animals we see and saw that it was "Good". That stupid right there. Animals eat each other. There's nothing "Good" about that IMHO. 

God would have also had to create all manner of disease on purpose. Again, something I wouldn't view as being "Good". 

I also have huge problems with the original story of Adam and Eve and the supposed "Fall from Grace", and the way that the God of Abraham supposedly handled that situation. 

I have problems with how he handled the Canaanites. I have problems with the idea that he supposedly gives someone "promised land" and yet has to ask them to conquer it via a war. 

You said that there shouldn't be any contradictions. Well, a God who commands people not to kill one moment and then instructs them to kill people and take over their land is a huge contradiction. 

Same thing goes with stoning sinners to death, killing heathens, etc. 

These fables are riddled with contradictions.

So because you don't agree with these things they are considered a fable? I'm glad you have brought these things up because it is exactly what I'm talking about. God in his Wisdom has created animals for a reason, as Muslims we believe that God is All-Wise and All-Knowing, and He does not create anything in vain. All of His actions are based on wisdom. If the wisdom behind any of His actions is hidden from the believer, then he should still adhere to this principle, and not think of his Lord in bad terms. 

The perfect nature of God's creation and control of all things proves His ability to provide for them all even though the created things are so many, He also tests those who believe in Him by means of these animals, rewards people by creating them,  and tests faith and certainty, the believer accepts the matter and submits, whilst someone that doubts would only ask “What is the point of God creating this". Furthermore the study of medicine has demonstrated that many beneficial drugs are derived through animals, not to mention the meat that we eat as food from animals, the milk, cheese and other products that are made from animals. Therefore one must look at the benefits not only outward appearances. Moreover, many of these dangerous animals are food for other creatures which are beneficial, and this forms the ecological cycle in the environments where God has created them.

Hence the Muslim believes that everything that God does is good, and that there is no pure evil in what He creates. In everything that He creates there has to be some aspect of good, even if it is hidden from us, as is the case with the creation of Satan, who is the head of evil. But there is wisdom and a purpose behind his creation, for God tests His creatures by means of him, to distinguish the obedient from the disobedient, those who strive from those who are negligent, the people of Paradise from the people of Hell. 

I'm not really aware of the Christian understanding of Adam and Eve and what you have stated, so I cannot comment. As for Contradictions you will not find any in the true religion of God.

Well, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but the Quran is an offshoot of Hebrew Mythology.

Can you provide some evidence for this, thanks 

Well you'd have a very hard time convincing me that it's free from contradictions. I hear that same nonsense from Jews and Christians about their versions of the religion too. But it's all just a bunch of hot air.

Your jumping the gun, without taking the first step in seeking the truth. I challenge any person to find me one contradiction in Islam, trust me no one can do this because it does not exist. I understand that others would say the same thing. But as individual we need to use our gifted brains and knowledge in seeking the truth with an open heart.

Well, that's certainly something we can agree upon.

I have no reason to consider Islam as a belief system. I can already see that it's based on the same egotistical and male-chauvinistic God as the Hebrew mythology. And it's based on the same original fables of a fall from grace, etc. all of which I reject as being "Divine" just as you reject the idea of Jesus being nailed to a pole as being "Divine". 

I have no intuitive attraction to Islam. 

Why would I consider something that I'm not even remotely attracted to. 

If there exist a divine creator who has "One True Religion" that he wants me to believe in don't you think it would be up to him to "Guide" me to it at least in terms of intuitive feelings if nothing else. 

Actually I feel "divinely guided" to the Eastern Mystical views that I already have. In fact, those views guided me to Wicca, which is even more profoundly spiritual for me. 

As far as I'm concerned I already have a deep and meaningful relationship with the spiritual essence of reality. 

So I'm not "looking" for anything.

Again without understanding Islam how can you come to this conclusion? It is  solely up to God to guide whom he wills,  no one else can guide you, however in saying that God only Guides those who are sincere in seeking the truth with an open heart and is true to themselves.

What does Wicca offer you?? Does it bring you closer to God?? 

I've spoken with Jews who make the same claim. They claim that they too do not think of God as "human-like", yet in full-bloom contradiction to that in the next breath they speak about "God will Judge us all". 

So they've contradicted themselves right there, just as you have. 

A God who will "Judge us all" necessarily has to have a sentient ego in order to do that. Perhaps you don't understand that? 

The Eastern mystics have recognized the error in that kind of thinking and have realized that a system of Karma makes far more sense. I agree with there views on that. 

Moreover, Jesus, like Muslims and the Jews most likely didn't view God as a personified egotistical being either. When he said things like "I and the Father are one", he was no doubt referring to the Eastern mystical views that I have already adopted. 

He even pointed to the Torah where it says, "Have I not said ye are gods?" 

So from my perspective Jesus himself was a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva. People just didn't understand what he was saying is all. 

So I'm already on the right path. I understand what Jesus was teaching, and there's no need to believe in an egoistical God who will judge people individually. 

That is a "human-like" picture of God. Yet you claim to not support that picture at the very same time that you support it. That right there is a contradiction on your behalf.

I'm not following if God is not human like and God will judge us all, how is this contradictory? How can any person say "they think" Karma makes more sense, over what God tells you of reality. We need to look at the evidence and not what people want to create in their minds according to their whims and desires. With this type of mentality I could create my own religion claiming that this "makes sense" too but according to whom me or God? What makes you think God is egocentric and where is your evidence? Again you have lost me what picture?

[Divine Insight]

I'm not saying that it should be free from polytheistic beliefs, God Himself is saying this.

No, that's not true.

You gave that as a criteria for what you believe a true religion should be.

Now you're claiming that God himself is saying this.

Have you ever spoken to God in-person yourself?

If not, then you confused because you have set a criteria for mythologies to be what you consider a "True Religion" and then because you have found a mythology that appears to you to satisfy this criteria, you claim that "God himself is saying this".

So it's crystal clear to me that your reasoning is grossly flawed.

So because you don't agree with these things they are considered a fable?

Absolutely. Because I too have "criteria" for what I consider to be "Divine Wisdom", and if a mythology fails to meet that criteria then, yes, I most certainly will reject it as clearly being inferior to what I consider the criteria of divinity.

I'm glad you have brought these things up because it is exactly what I'm talking about. God in his Wisdom has created animals for a reason, as Muslims we believe that God is All-Wise and All-Knowing, and He does not create anything in vain. All of His actions are based on wisdom. If the wisdom behind any of His actions is hidden from the believer, then he should still adhere to this principle, and not think of his Lord in bad terms. 

I'm not concern with what Muslims believe or accept as criteria for divinity.

Apparently you are a Muslim and you have already demonstrated flawed reasoning, so why should I bother with anything you have to say?

My criteria for a divine supreme being is really quite simple:

A divine all-wise, all-knowing, and benevolent God must be at least wiser than me, and certainly more compassionate.

The Biblical stories do not portray a God who is wiser or more compassionate than myself. Therefore I have no reason to believe that this is a correct picture of a supposedly divine being.

The perfect nature of God's creation and control of all things proves His ability to provide for them all even though the created things are so many.

What perfection are you talking about? Where do you see any perfection in nature?

He also tests those who believe in Him by means of these animals, rewards people by creating them,  and tests faith and certainty, the believer accepts the matter and submits, whilst someone that doubts would only ask “What is the point of God creating this".

The idea of a supposedly omniscient God who knows what's in the hearts and minds of men needing to "test" anyone is an oxymoron.

So strike one against this religious mythology.

Furthermore the study of medicine has demonstrated that many beneficial drugs are derived through animals, not to mention the meat that we eat as food from animals, the milk, cheese and other products that are made from animals. Therefore one must look at the benefits not only outward appearances. Moreover, many of these dangerous animals are food for other creatures which are beneficial, and this forms the ecological cycle in the environments where God has created them.

So you're suggesting that violence and killing is divine as long as something beneficial can come out of it?

I disagree that this represent divine wisdom.

Strike two.

Hence the Muslim believes that everything that God does is good, and that there is no pure evil in what He creates. In everything that He creates there has to be some aspect of good, even if it is hidden from us, as is the case with the creation of Satan, who is the head of evil. But there is wisdom and a purpose behind his creation, for God tests His creatures by means of him, to distinguish the obedient from the disobedient, those who strive from those who are negligent, the people of Paradise from the people of Hell. 

All you're telling me here is that you are in agreement with me.

You, yourself, recognize and acknowledge that these fables of God you support contain grossly obvious inconsistencies and contradictions. But rather than simply rejecting the mythology for being clearly false, you simply pretend that there could be other explanations (not contained within these fables) that can justify the gross absurdities within these fables.

With all due respect, from my perspective, that nothing short of absurd.

You acknowledge and recognize the flaws in these fables yourself, and then simply ignore them pretending you can make them go away by proclaiming that there must be reasons not contained within the fables, and that you can't even imagine, that can justify these absurdities.

I prefer to simply reject the fables for what they are.

I see no reason to pretend that the could be justified by some unknown information that I can't even imagine in my own mind.

Strike Three.

I'm not really aware of the Christian understanding of Adam and Eve and what you have stated, so I cannot comment. As for Contradictions you will not find any in the true religion of God.

Does the Quran have a story of the "Fall from Grace" of mankind?

Here's the story from the Christian Old Testament KJV.

It's very short:

Genesis 2

[21] And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
[22] And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
[23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
[25] And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 3

[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
[7] And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
[8] And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
[9] And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
[10] And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
[11] And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
[12] And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
[13] And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
[14] And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
[15] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
[16] Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
[17] And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
[18] Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
[19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
[20] And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
[24] So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


Can you post the story of the fall from grace from the Quran?

Your jumping the gun, without taking the first step in seeking the truth. I challenge any person to find me one contradiction in Islam, trust me no one can do this because it does not exist.

That's what the Christians claim all the time, and I show them endless contradictions the whole way through their biblical canon.

They simply stand in denial, yet they can never give sufficient counter-arguments.

I'm not familiar enough with the Quran precisely. Although to the best of my knowledge it's based on the very same Old Testament folklore as Judaism and Christianity are.

None the less, you have already confessed a contradiction that you, yourself, cannot justify. The creation of Satan!

That's a contradiction of what a benevolent God should be creating, and continually supporting! You've already confessed that this is a contradiction prior in this same post. And you appeal to there being some sort of external explanations that are not in these fables, nor can we even imagine what they might be. You appeal to God as somehow having an hidden explanation that we simply aren't wise enough to realize.

So you've already confessed that there are contradictions in these fables.

Strike Four.

I understand that others would say the same thing. But as individual we need to use our gifted brains and knowledge in seeking the truth with an open heart.

Well, my gifted brain and open heart have revealed to me that the jealous male-chauvinistic God of the Abrahamic religions (including Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) is inconsistent with true wisdom and compassion. It's also riddled with unresolvable contradictions such as the creation and continued support of Satan (a contradiction that even you yourself have already confessed)

My gifted brain and open heart have led me to the wisdom of the Eastern Mystics.

As far as I'm concerned their philosophies have a far better shot at being representative of truth, than anything that has ever come out of the Mediterranean or Middle-Eastern mythologies.

Again without understanding Islam how can you come to this conclusion? It is  solely up to God to guide whom he wills,  no one else can guide you, however in saying that God only Guides those who are sincere in seeking the truth with an open heart and is true to themselves.

If you sincerely believe that it's up to God to guide me then why are you trying so hard to muscle in on God's job?

As far as I'm concerned God has already guided me to Taoism, Buddhism, and finally to Wicca. All of which I continue to embrace as they are completely compatible with each other when viewed with divine insight.

What does Wicca offer you?? Does it bring you closer to God?? 

Yes, absolutely. Wicca is a deeply spiritual religion and in being so it brings me close to spirit. Since God is spirit Wicca then naturally brings me close to God in that way.

I should add a disclaimer at this point however:

I personally view "Wicca" in a very abstract and personal way. I do not necessarily support any "Organized Wiccan Covens", or even necessarily anyone else's view of what "Wicca" might mean to them.

I was introduced to Wicca via very abstract mentors who have presented it to me in a way that is completely compatible with Taoism and Buddhism. You need to understand the Moon Goddess and Sun God of Wicca in terms of psychic spiritual archetypes, and not as actual personified deities.

So for me, Wicca has become a spiritual psychic paradigm which I find to be very useful for 'communing' with the mind of God.

I would even go further to say that I view Taoism and Buddhism as spiritual philosophies, and I view Wicca as a paradigm for spiritual practice. For me they work together as a whole and complement each other very well.

None of them define what God has to be. Nor do any of them claim to own the words of God.

You say that there is one true God.

Well, I honor and commune with one true God.

Therefore I cannot have it wrong.

Don't confuse a Moon Goddess and a Sun God as being polytheistic because those psychic archetypes are not God. They are simply psychic vessels of communique through which God can be communed with.

I'm not following if God is not human like and God will judge us all, how is this contradictory? How can any person say "they think" Karma makes more sense, over what God tells you of reality.

What God has told me about reality?

As far as I'm concerned Karma makes far more sense.

Why would a God want to bother having to pay attention to every little thing that everyone does and pass judgement on every single soul, when "With God all Things are Possible" and he could easily set up a system of Karma that does all of that automatically?

So IMHO, a supreme deity who is all-powerful and unlimited would surely use a system of karma over the crude mundane idea of having to keep track of what everyone does and personally judge them himself.

You're placing limitations on God. I'm not.

So I'm giving God credit for being far more powerful and wise than you give God credit for being.

We need to look at the evidence and not what people want to create in their minds according to their whims and desires. With this type of mentality I could create my own religion claiming that this "makes sense" too but according to whom me or God?

Well shouldn't God make sense to you?

Why should God not make sense to you?

I would definitely suggest to anyone to place their faith in a religion that makes sense to them.

In fact, with all due respect, I would think anyone would be truly foolish to place their faith in a religion that does not make sense to them.

So yes, I strongly suggest that you place your faith in a religion that makes sense to you, even if you have to make it up in your own mind.

After all, that's how the Abrahamic religions were made up.

All you're doing is accepting someone else's fables, even though you clearly don't even see them as making sense, such as in the case of the God creating Satan.

I personally don't believe in any Satan, so that's not a problem for me.

What makes you think God is egocentric and where is your evidence?

I don't think God is egocentric and that's why I reject the Abrahamic religions.

The Old Testament God is a self-proclaimed jealous God who demands that he be worshiped, loved, and obeyed lest he will become extremely angry and curse people in his wrath.

That's an egotistical portrait of God.

And like I say, I don't think that God is egocentric, and this is one of the many reason that I reject the egocentric God of Abraham.

Hope this post has helped to clarify my views for you.

[HaLi8993]

No, that's not true. 

You gave that as a criteria for what you believe a true religion should be. 

Now you're claiming that God himself is saying this. 

Have you ever spoken to God in-person yourself? 

If not, then you confused because you have set a criteria for mythologies to be what you consider a "True Religion" and then because you have found a mythology that appears to you to satisfy this criteria, you claim that "God himself is saying this". 

So it's crystal clear to me that your reasoning is grossly flawed.

No you are incorrect I'm not making these guidelines up, as Muslims we believe that the Quran is the word of God. Hence there are many Quranic verses that testify to these guidelines for example: 

It should not be self contradictory, in the Quran God says:

QURAN: 4:82

“Do they not then consider the Qur’aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allah (God), they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction"

Every member of a faith/tradition believes that his community is following the truth. Every follower of a religion believes that his religion is the best religion and the straightest way. But when you ask them for  evidence of their beliefs, they tell you stories and reports that have no sound basis and whose texts are not free of faults and discrepancies. They rely on books of which it is not known who wrote or said them, or in which language they were originally written, or in which land they originated, rather they are a mixture that has been gathered and written in a book and passed down from generation to generation with no proper examination of the source of the text or of the text itself. 

These unknown books and stories do not provide a valid proof with regard to religions and beliefs. It is impossible that they could all be true, and have come from God. If they are many, and the truth is one, then which of them is the truth? So there has to be guidelines by which we may recognize the true religion and distinguish it from false religions. If these guidelines or one of them is absent from a religion then we will know that it is false. 

Absolutely. Because I too have "criteria" for what I consider to be "Divine Wisdom", and if a mythology fails to meet that criteria then, yes, I most certainly will reject it as clearly being inferior to what I consider the criteria of divinity. 

Let us compare the two criteria's, what is your criteria?

I'm not concern with what Muslims believe or accept as criteria for divinity. 

Apparently you are a Muslim and you have already demonstrated flawed reasoning, so why should I bother with anything you have to say? 

My criteria for a divine supreme being is really quite simple: 

A divine all-wise, all-knowing, and benevolent God must be at least wiser than me, and certainly more compassionate. 

The Biblical stories do not portray a God who is wiser or more compassionate than myself. Therefore I have no reason to believe that this is a correct picture of a supposedly divine being.

You think it is "flawed reasoning" according to your own opinion lol, God is most certainly Wiser and more Compassionate then me and you, I'm not sure which biblical story you are referring too, therefore I can't give you an answer or even suggest it is true. As Muslims we believe in what God makes clear to us in the Quran.

What perfection are you talking about? Where do you see any perfection in nature?

 

The Wisdom behind the creation of things is to manifest the perfect nature of God’s creation and control of all things. Who is in control of the entire universe?? Maintaining, Sustaining, Controlling it. Is mankind able to do such things. There are Quranic verses in relation to this:

QURAN: 2:164

“Verily, the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which is of use to mankind, and the water (rain) which Allaah sends down from the sky and makes the earth alive therewith after its death, and the moving (living) creatures of all kinds that He has scattered therein, and in the veering of winds and clouds which are held between the sky and the earth, are indeed aayaat (proofs, evidences, signs) for people of understanding.�

QURAN: 6:99

“It is He Who sends down water (rain) from the sky, and with it We bring forth vegetation of all kinds, and out of it We bring forth green stalks, from which We bring forth thick clustered grain. And out of the date-palm and its spathe come forth clusters of dates hanging low and near, and gardens of grapes, olives and pomegranates, each similar (in kind) yet different (in variety and taste). Look at their fruits when they begin to bear, and the ripeness thereof. Verily! In these things there are signs for people who believe.�

QURAN: 7:57

“And it is He Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain), till when they have carried a heavy-laden cloud, We drive it to a land that is dead, then We cause water (rain) to descend thereon. Then We produce every kind of fruit therewith. Similarly, We shall raise up the dead, so that you may remember or take heed.

The idea of a supposedly omniscient God who knows what's in the hearts and minds of men needing to "test" anyone is an oxymoron. 

So strike one against this religious mythology.

Lol, how is this contradictory, God gives us free will to make our own decisions in life, distinguish good from evil, repent or commit sin. It would be contradictory if we had no free will. God is All-Knowing hence on the day of judgement no one will be able to lie and say I didn't know, or didn't mean that etc. as God All-Mighty knows exactly what our intentions are and our most inner thoughts at all times. God knows what will happen to us before it happens this is not to suggest in any way that He makes decisions on our behalf.

So you're suggesting that violence and killing is divine as long as something beneficial can come out of it? 

I disagree that this represent divine wisdom. 

Strike two

Something beneficial does come out of it as it prevents crimes from occurring and also protects the society as a whole. We have rules to abide by in parks, schools,  roads, public transport etc, and we can't abide by God's laws. If you commit a crime you pay the consequences for your actions. A murderer is sentenced to death by euthanasia. Is it beneficial? Of course it is because if this person was to be set free he would impose a greater threat to society and who knows maybe even kill even more people. The good outweighs the bad. God is our Creator hence he is aware of what will bring peace to the world cause He is the Creator all that exists.

All you're telling me here is that you are in agreement with me. 

You, yourself, recognize and acknowledge that these fables of God you support contain grossly obvious inconsistencies and contradictions. But rather than simply rejecting the mythology for being clearly false, you simply pretend that there could be other explanations (not contained within these fables) that can justify the gross absurdities within these fables. 

With all due respect, from my perspective, that nothing short of absurd. 

You acknowledge and recognize the flaws in these fables yourself, and then simply ignore them pretending you can make them go away by proclaiming that there must be reasons not contained within the fables, and that you can't even imagine, that can justify these absurdities. 

I prefer to simply reject the fables for what they are. 

I see no reason to pretend that the could be justified by some unknown information that I can't even imagine in my own mind. 

Strike Three.

I don't believe that the Quran consists of any fables, you need to prove that it in fact does and show me any contradictions, You may not see the Good but God is the One that is All-Knowing, hence if He says something is good it is good. We don't question it. What fable are you referring to and where have I acknowledged and recognized any flaws in the Quran?? Of course you can't imagine it in your own mind because you are not God, our limited understanding and knowledge cannot be placed above that of God. 

Does the Quran have a story of the "Fall from Grace" of mankind?

Can you post the story of the fall from grace from the Quran?

QURAN 7:10-29

And We have certainly established you upon the earth and made for you therein ways of livelihood. Little are you grateful.

And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

[ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."

[ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.

[Satan] said, "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected."

[ Allah ] said, "Indeed, you are of those reprieved."

[Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful [to You]."

[ Allah ] said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill Hell with you, all together."

And "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."

But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal."

And he swore [by Allah ] to them, "Indeed, I am to you from among the sincere advisors."

So he made them fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten together over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And their Lord called to them, "Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?"

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers."

[ Allah ] said, "Descend, being to one another enemies. And for you on the earth is a place of settlement and enjoyment for a time."

He said, "Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."

O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness - that is best. That is from the signs of Allah that perhaps they will remember.

O children of Adam, let not Satan tempt you as he removed your parents from Paradise, stripping them of their clothing to show them their private parts. Indeed, he sees you, he and his tribe, from where you do not see them. Indeed, We have made the devils allies to those who do not believe.

And when they commit an immorality, they say, "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"

Say, [O Muhammad], "My Lord has ordered justice and that you maintain yourselves [in worship of Him] at every place [or time] of prostration, and invoke Him, sincere to Him in religion." Just as He originated you, you will return [to life] 

That's what the Christians claim all the time, and I show them endless contradictions the whole way through their biblical canon. 

They simply stand in denial, yet they can never give sufficient counter-arguments. 

I'm not familiar enough with the Quran precisely. Although to the best of my knowledge it's based on the very same Old Testament folklore as Judaism and Christianity are. 

None the less, you have already confessed a contradiction that you, yourself, cannot justify. The creation of Satan! 

That's a contradiction of what a benevolent God should be creating, and continually supporting! You've already confessed that this is a contradiction prior in this same post. And you appeal to there being some sort of external explanations that are not in these fables, nor can we even imagine what they might be. You appeal to God as somehow having an hidden explanation that we simply aren't wise enough to realize. 

So you've already confessed that there are contradictions in these fables.

Strike Four.

Lol, I can show you contradictions in the bible also.  But we are talking about the Quran. Where is the contradiction? Saytan and other jinn, and humans, have free will and freedom of choice, to obey God or to disobey Him, as God says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“Then whosoever wills, let him believe; and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve�

(Quran 18:29)

“Verily, We showed him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful�

(76:3)

God commanded Saytan to prostrate to Adam, but he refused and was arrogant, and was one of the non believers. So God expelled him from His mercy, and cursed him until the Day of Judgement. 

I did not confess to no such thing, you are taking my words out of context, our purpose and how we should live our lives in order to please our Creator and attain Paradise is very clear, it would be silly to assume He had not advised his creation about this. Many people are confused about what is wanted from us, God wants us to adhere to His religion which He has chosen for us, He will reward the obedient and punish the disobedient. This is part of God's decree which will never be altered or changed. In saying that there are indeed things that we as humans cannot comprehend or understand as only God has Knowledge of such things, such as the Knowledge of the unseen. You don't have to literally see something to believe in it's existence. We place our trust in God and believe in what He says.

Well, my gifted brain and open heart have revealed to me that the jealous male-chauvinistic God of the Abrahamic religions (including Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) is inconsistent with true wisdom and compassion. It's also riddled with unresolvable contradictions such as the creation and continued support of Satan (a contradiction that even you yourself have already confessed) 

My gifted brain and open heart have led me to the wisdom of the Eastern Mystics. 

As far as I'm concerned their philosophies have a far better shot at being representative of truth, than anything that has ever come out of the Mediterranean or Middle-Eastern mythologies.

God supports Satan?? Where did you get this from? What exactly did I confess? In my opinion if you had an open heart and were sincere in seeking the truth with the intention of pleasing your Lord, you wouldn't have been lead to such Pagonistic  ritualistic  beliefs that involve magic and witchcraft. These practices destroy people's lives. It's your choice and decision if you want to follow such beliefs that are created by man.

Again I would like it if you would provide evidence for your claims.

If you sincerely believe that it's up to God to guide me then why are you trying so hard to muscle in on God's job? 

As far as I'm concerned God has already guided me to Taoism, Buddhism, and finally to Wicca. All of which I continue to embrace as they are completely compatible with each other when viewed with divine insight.

I'm only answering your questions, as I said only God is able to guide people not I, that is your choice if you want to believe in such things.

Yes, absolutely. Wicca is a deeply spiritual religion and in being so it brings me close to spirit. Since God is spirit Wicca then naturally brings me close to God in that way. 

I should add a disclaimer at this point however: 

I personally view "Wicca" in a very abstract and personal way. I do not necessarily support any "Organized Wiccan Covens", or even necessarily anyone else's view of what "Wicca" might mean to them. 

I was introduced to Wicca via very abstract mentors who have presented it to me in a way that is completely compatible with Taoism and Buddhism. You need to understand the Moon Goddess and Sun God of Wicca in terms of psychic spiritual archetypes, and not as actual personified deities. 

So for me, Wicca has become a spiritual psychic paradigm which I find to be very useful for 'communing' with the mind of God. 

I would even go further to say that I view Taoism and Buddhism as spiritual philosophies, and I view Wicca as a paradigm for spiritual practice. For me they work together as a whole and complement each other very well. 

None of them define what God has to be. Nor do any of them claim to own the words of God. 

You say that there is one true God. 

Well, I honor and commune with one true God. 

Therefore I cannot have it wrong. 

Don't confuse a Moon Goddess and a Sun God as being polytheistic because those psychic archetypes are not God. They are simply psychic vessels of communique through which God can be communed with.

Where is your evidence that God is a spirit, what do you mean by this? In Islam we believe in Jinn this is probably what you are calling upon. What do you do to commune with God? And how do you worship Him? How do you know that this is what God wants from you? And what is the purpose of life?

What God has told me about reality? 

As far as I'm concerned Karma makes far more sense. 

Why would a God want to bother having to pay attention to every little thing that everyone does and pass judgement on every single soul, when "With God all Things are Possible" and he could easily set up a system of Karma that does all of that automatically? 

So IMHO, a supreme deity who is all-powerful and unlimited would surely use a system of karma over the crude mundane idea of having to keep track of what everyone does and personally judge them himself. 

You're placing limitations on God. I'm not. 

So I'm giving God credit for being far more powerful and wise than you give God credit for being.

Paradise does not come with a free ticket, you have to work hard for it. God does as He wills. And we are obliged to obey His commandments. He can do anything He wills but we follow only what he has described to us with truth without questioning His abilities. I don't have to give God credit, as I don't talk on behalf of God. Why do you believe Karma makes more sense? How does Karma explain justice to those who have been wronged?

Well shouldn't God make sense to you? 

Why should God not make sense to you? 

I would definitely suggest to anyone to place their faith in a religion that makes sense to them. 

In fact, with all due respect, I would think anyone would be truly foolish to place their faith in a religion that does not make sense to them. 

So yes, I strongly suggest that you place your faith in a religion that makes sense to you, even if you have to make it up in your own mind. 

After all, that's how the Abrahamic religions were made up. 

All you're doing is accepting someone else's fables, even though you clearly don't even see them as making sense, such as in the case of the God creating Satan.

I personally don't believe in any Satan, so that's not a problem for me.

Yes He makes perfect sense to me, however it doesn't make sense to me according to my own wants, needs, experiences and understanding of life etc, It makes sense to me in accordance with the evidence. Something could make sense to you however it does not mean it is the truth at all. So are you denying that Jesus (peace be upon him) and all the rest of the Prophets and Messengers that came are not real, no miracles were performed etc? Again you seem to be putting words into my mouth, can you post for me where I said "God creating Satan" doesn't make sense.

I don't think God is egocentric and that's why I reject the Abrahamic religions. 

The Old Testament God is a self-proclaimed jealous God who demands that he be worshiped, loved, and obeyed lest he will become extremely angry and curse people in his wrath. 

That's an egotistical portrait of God. 

And like I say, I don't think that God is egocentric, and this is one of the many reason that I reject the egocentric God of Abraham. 

Hope this post has helped to clarify my views for you.

You keep bringing up what is written in the Old Testament but where in the Quran does it say this?

[Divine Insight]

Every follower of a religion believes that his religion is the best religion and the straightest way.

No that's not true. That's only true of people who don't give much thought to spirituality.

For those of us who do give much thought to it we know that there is no such thing as "one best religion" etc.

My religion and spiritual philosophies are only valid for me. They would never work for you because you are unique individual of your own. You might adopt something close, but for you to follow the precise same path as I follow would be foolish, and vice versa.

Let us compare the two criteria's, what is your criteria?

My criteria is quite simple actually.

My FIRST CRITERIA:

A supreme God must be more intelligent, wiser, and more compassionate than me. That should be obvious I would think.

The Biblical stories of God fail miserably to satisfy my first criteria.

You think it is "flawed reasoning" according to your own opinion lol, God is most certainly Wiser and more Compassionate then me and you, I'm not sure which biblical story you are referring too, therefore I can't give you an answer or even suggest it is true. As Muslims we believe in what God makes clear to us in the Quran.

Absolutely. If I deem something in a God-myth to be flawed reasoning according to my own opinion I most certainly will reject it as being "Divine Wisdom" because it has already failed my first criteria (see above)

Who is in control of the entire universe?

I'm in control of my universe. Are you in control of yours?

God gives us free will to make our own decisions in life, distinguish good from evil, repent or commit sin.

That's not a problem for me. I don't choose to do evil things.

Do you?

Something beneficial does come out of it as it prevents crimes from occurring and also protects the society as a whole. We have rules to abide by in parks, schools, roads, public transport etc, and we can't abide by God's laws. If you commit a crime you pay the consequences for your actions. A murderer is sentenced to death by euthanasia. Is it beneficial? Of course it is because if this person was to be set free he would impose a greater threat to society and who knows maybe even kill even more people. The good outweighs the bad. God is our Creator hence he is aware of what will bring peace to the world cause He is the Creator all that exists.

You are reducing God to being as powerless and inept as mortal men.

An all-wise, omnipotent God would have no need to be so limited.

Besides, you said that one of your criteria was that there be no contradictions in your religion, but now you've got a blatant one right here.

Does your God not command you "Thou shalt not kill"?

If so, then why should you feel that men have the right to kill anyone?

Shouldn't the almighty creator take care of that dirty work if he feels that someone needs to be killed.

Why leave it up to us to pass judgement on people and kill them?

We don't have God's omniscience. We can't know what's in the hearts and minds of men. We might kill innocent people because of our inept ability to know who the true sinners are. In fact we know historically that innocent people have been condemned to death by men.

Therefore any God who would have supposedly assigned this job to us would have to be an idiot. Thus failing my first criteria again.

I don't believe that the Quran consists of any fables, you need to prove that it in fact does and show me any contradictions.

I don't have to prove anything to you. I'm not the salesman here. You are.

You're the one who's trying to sell me on Islam.

I have nothing to sell you. I couldn't care less what you believe.

I'm just explaining to you why I'm not buying.

It's up to you to prove whatever you'd like to prove to me because you're the one doing the preaching, not me.

QURAN 7:10-29

And We have certainly established you upon the earth and made for you therein ways of livelihood. Little are you grateful.

And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

You said that one of your criteria for a true religion is that it be monotheistic.

So why does it say "We have certainly created you" in your religious doctrine?

But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal."

And he swore [by Allah ] to them, "Indeed, I am to you from among the sincere advisors."

Well, I see your creation story doesn't do any better than the Christian Bible.

The verse you posted here has Satan swearing to Adam and Eve, "Indeed, I am to you from among the sincere advisors."

So they thought he was sent by God. Can't blame them for doing what he says then, they would only be following directives that they believed had come from God.

So your creation story falls flat on it's face too evidently.

Evidently no one could write very wise fables back then.

So once again, it fails my first criteria.

No truly wise and righteous God would have found Adam and Eve guilty if they were merely following the advice of someone they believed had been sent to advise them the name of God.

So much for the Quran.

Lol, I can show you contradictions in the bible also. But we are talking about the Quran. Where is the contradiction? Saytan and other jinn, and humans, have free will and freedom of choice, to obey God or to disobey Him, as God says (interpretation of the meaning):

You've already confessed in a previous post that you find it to be a contradiction that God would create Satan, and you've appealed to "hidden" wisdom, that you can't even imagine, to potentially explain that contradiction away.

I simply recognize that's it's a contradiction that can't be explained away and just leave it at that.

Why should I go out of my way to make imaginary excuses for a failed mythology?

I did not confess to no such thing, you are taking my words out of context, our purpose and how we should live our lives in order to please our Creator and attain Paradise is very clear, it would be silly to assume He had not advised his creation about this. Many people are confused about what is wanted from us, God wants us to adhere to His religion which He has chosen for us, He will reward the obedient and punish the disobedient. This is part of God's decree which will never be altered or changed. In saying that there are indeed things that we as humans cannot comprehend or understand as only God has Knowledge of such things, such as the Knowledge of the unseen. You don't have to literally see something to believe in it's existence. We place our trust in God and believe in what He says.

That's fine with me.

I'm not trying to convince you to convert away from Islam.

I'm just explaining to you why I don't buy into it.

If you weren't trying to convince me of it I would have never brought it up.

Remember in your OP you said:

So what then gives individuals the right to place their limited understandings above that of God, instead of trusting their Creator and believing and submitting with full conviction to His will. Instead mankind is arrogant and proud denying and believing that he is above the Creator in knowledge and understanding when God is the One that is the Creator of all that exists.

My response to that is to say that I already believe in God. No problem!

But I don't buy into Islam, Judaism, or Christianity as I see no wisdom in any of those ancient mythologies.

You're the one who is desperately trying to convince me that Islam is the "One True Religion"

So this isn't about God at all. It's about a man-made mythology.

I already believe in God. And if there is only one true God then clearly that's the God I necessarily believe in since there would be no other.

Religion is irrelevant.

God supports Satan?? Where did you get this from? What exactly did I confess?

Well, if Satan has no power of his own and he's constantly running around causing problems he must be getting his power from God.

In fact, can anyone get power from anywhere but God?

Are you suggesting that Satan is a God in his own right who has his own power?

Also, I can't speak for the Quran, but in the Christian book of Job in their Old Testament, Satan actually goes to God and asks permission to do mean cruel things to Job and God grants his permission.

So this God clearly supports this Satan, at least in the Christian Old Testament.

In my opinion if you had an open heart and were sincere in seeking the truth with the intention of pleasing your Lord, you wouldn't have been lead to such Pagonistic ritualistic beliefs that involve magic and witchcraft. These practices destroy people's lives. It's your choice and decision if you want to follow such beliefs that are created by man.

I couldn't care less about your opinion of my spiritual beliefs.

I'm certain that God is very pleased with my choices. And that's all that matters to me.

They say that God is like our "Father" (as a metaphor)

Ok, so imagine that you are child who is old enough to understand who different historical figures are, and you would like to please your father. Would you run out and get a picture of Adolf Hitler and bring it to you father and say "I think you're like this!"

No of course you wouldn't. That would be insulting, and why would you want to insult your father?

Instead you'd go out and get a picture of the most wonderful person you could find and bring that back and sit down in your father's lap and say, "I think you are like this!"

Well, that's what I do with God.

If I were to chose any of the Abrahamic religions as a "picture" of God, I would be insulting God. Because, to me, those pictures are ignorant and disgusting.

So I've gone out and found the absolute most wonderful and beautiful pictures of spirituality that I can possibly find. In my case it's a combination of Taoism, Buddhism and Wicca. It's the most beautiful picture I could find. You might even say that I "painted it" myself, in a sense, because I've selected the very best of these philosophies.

I'm certain that any father would be absolutely thrilled that his child had taken the trouble to be sure to find the very best spiritual picture that could be found.

But in the vein of Adolf Hilter, you would have your hateful Muslim God condemn me for believing that God is beautiful.

But how ironic is that?

You are basically demanding that God truly is a merciless unloving hateful ignorant pig.

But that violates my first criteria of what God should be.

Again I would like it if you would provide evidence for your claims.

I don't need to provide you with anything.

You are the one who is saying hateful things about me:

You said about me, "In my opinion if you had an open heart and were sincere in seeking the truth with the intention of pleasing your Lord, you wouldn't have been lead to such Pagonistic ritualistic beliefs that involve magic and witchcraft. These practices destroy people's lives. It's your choice and decision if you want to follow such beliefs that are created by man."

That's a terrible thing to say about anyone.

Who are you to pass judgment on my choices concerning God?

Have I told you that you are doing something wrong by choosing to be a Muslim?

No, not at all. For all I know Islam may very well appear to be a "beautiful religion" to you.

All I'm saying is that it's not something I would chose to represent God.

You are the one who's trying to put down my spiritual choices and convert me to Islam.

I'm not attempting to convert you to Wicca. I don't care what religion you chose, or even if you chose atheism. Those are your choices to make.

I'm only answering your questions, as I said only God is able to guide people not I, that is your choice if you want to believe in such things.

But apparently you don't even trust God to guide me as you have already suggested that my choices are not good in your opinion.

So you don't trust God.

I trust God to guide you if you'll allow her.

Where is your evidence that God is a spirit, what do you mean by this? In Islam we believe in Jinn this is probably what you are calling upon.

I don't require evidence that God is spirit. I simply define it to be so and that's sufficient for me. I may not even being using the word in the same way that you might think of it. I don't have a rigid scientific definition for "spirit". It simple isn't required for my spiritual philosophy to be meaningful to me.

What do you do to commune with God?

I commune with God through psychic visions and journeys. The communication does not take place in language. The communique is through psychic symbols, and I'll be the first to confess that the messages are often mysterious and require much thought on my part to understand them.

And how do you worship Him?

Actually I focus more on the feminine aspect of God. But I worship the masculine too. I should clarify what I mean by the term "Worship".

I don't worship God in the sense of attempting to appease God. I don't view God as requiring appeasements. To me "worship" simply means to love, honor, and respect. I don't fear God because I have no reason to fear God. God loves me, and I love God. It's a very loving relationship no fear required.

There's no real "need" to worship God.

You need to realize that it's your Abrahamic mythologies that portray a God who is hard-up to be worshiped.

I don't worship God because God is demanding that I worship Her.

I simply have a mutually loving relationship with God.

God loves me as much as I love her, so in a sense you could say that she worships me in return (assuming that you understand worship to mean love).

I think a lot of people who have been inflicted by the Abrahamic religions think that to worship God means to "Cower down to God".

The very idea that a benevolent creator would want anyone to cower down to them is absurd, IMHO.

How do you know that this is what God wants from you?

God has no "wants". That's a fallacy of the Mediterranean mindset.

And what is the purpose of life?

If you have to ask that question you haven't yet lived.

Paradise does not come with a free ticket, you have to work hard for it.

That's the fallacy of your religion.

No hard work is required. Unless of course, you feel that it's hard work to be a nice person?

God does as He wills.

Yes, She does.

Because I have come to know God through a paradigm of both male and female archetypes, I have come to realize that the masculine is actually meant to serve the feminine, not the other way around as the Abrahamic religions claim.

If you stop and think about it Adam would have been useless by himself because he could not produce a child.

Therefore it makes far more sense that Eve would have been created first and Adam would have been created as a helpmate for her. Thus showing the true absurdity of the patriarchal Abrahamic God myth.

There is nothing good about the Abrahamic myths, they are as far from truth as anything can be.

But in truth, God works through us, and experiences life through us. So God's will is our will, unless we chose to otherwise.

And we are obliged to obey His commandments. He can do anything He wills but we follow only what he has described to us with truth without questioning His abilities.

So you live your entire life based on intellectual decisions of whether or not you think you've obeyed a commandment from a religion?

There's no need to do that.

All you need to do is let God into your heart and just do what comes natural to you.

You don't even need religion at all. I don't really consider any of the philosophies I that I embrace as "religions" actually. I don't think of Wicca as a "religion". To me it's just a collection of psychic tools that are useful in communing with God.

You really need to get away from dogma and commandments and just let God flow in your life.

It shouldn't be "hard work" unless for some reason you naturally prefer to do evil things?

I don't naturally prefer to do evil things, so I can't understand people who do.

I don't have to give God credit, as I don't talk on behalf of God.

I don't talk on behalf of God either. And if following commandments works for you then perhaps that's your relationship with God.

One thing that has become crystal clear to me is that God does not have the same relationship with every human. Clearly that's not possible because for that to be the case every human would need to be identically the same.

You say that for you it's "hard work" to reach paradise. Perhaps that is true for you.

But it's not hard work for me because I don't have any evil tendencies that I constantly need to fight against. I'm just a naturally good person. Perhaps God came into my heart at a very young age because I've been a good person all my life and it's been extremely easy for me. No hard work at all. I have never had to fight against temptation to do evil things.

But then again, I don't carry around a black book filled with commandments that proclaim that every little innocent thing I do is a sin.

Nor do I believe people when they tell me I'm a "sinner" for whatever reasons.

Just like you seem to be suggesting that there's something wrong with me believing in what you call "pagan religions" or witchcraft. Those aren't sins.

If you go through your life believing all that nonsense it's no wonder you think it's "hard work" to get into heaven because you'd be basically banned from living any sort of life at all.

You'd have no real freedom of choice or anything. You'd be living your life in a spiritual straight-jacket. It's no wonder you'd see that as being "hard work".

Why do you believe Karma makes more sense? How does Karma explain justice to those who have been wronged?

Karma would be an infallible justice system on autopilot.

As far as I'm concerned anything you can put on autopilot make more sense than having to constantly monitor it yourself.

And why wouldn't it be justice?

What's the difference whether judgement it's done automatically or manually?

Judgement is judgment. How it's employed doesn't change that.

~~~~~

In fact, that's the bottom line really isn't it?

You're worried about being judged by a judgmental God.

I'm not.

Does this mean that I don't believe in a judgmental God?

No.

It simply means that I'm confident that I haven't done anything bad enough to give me reason to fear judgement.

You believe in a mythology that would have me condemned for believing in witchcraft. But that's absurd. There's nothing wrong with witchcraft anymore than there is something wrong with a sword. It's what you use it for that determines whether you've done something good with it or something evil.

If you're living your life in fear of a book that proclaims to you that just about everything is a sin, then it's no wonder you feel that it's such hard work to please God.

Why should it be hard work to please a truly righteous God?

Have you ever pondered that question?