choose me with free will..or else...

[sin_is_fun]

Gods law says "You have choice.You have freewill.But CHOOSE ME WITH FREE WILL. Or else.....". Now how is this free will?This looks like hobson's choice.

[franknhonest]

Well, it depends exactly what you mean by "free will". Of course, people are at liberty to do whatever they desire, but they cannot of their own volition choose salvation. This is because according to the Bible, salvation from sin is a moral issue, not a decision about whether you will brush your teeth or not before you go to bed. The nature of man has to be changed by God. This is what the Holy Spirit's drawing (dragging, pulling) does. Not everyone is drawn - only those who have been "given to Jesus by the Father". According to that chapter, all who are drawn are saved. Those who are not perish.

The Arminian idea of "free will" is not just about people being free to do what they want. They imagine that man is completely separate from any external forces, circumstances or temptations that would cause a man to go in the wrong direction. Arminians believe that a man, independently of God, can choose God. This is what the Bible denies.

[Confused]

Well, it depends exactly what you mean by "free will". Of course, people are at liberty to do whatever they desire, but they cannot of their own volition choose salvation. This is because according to the Bible, salvation from sin is a moral issue, not a decision about whether you will brush your teeth or not before you go to bed. The nature of man has to be changed by God. This is what the Holy Spirit's drawing (dragging, pulling) does. Not everyone is drawn - only those who have been "given to Jesus by the Father". According to that chapter, all who are drawn are saved. Those who are not perish.

The Arminian idea of "free will" is not just about people being free to do what they want. They imagine that man is completely separate from any external forces, circumstances or temptations that would cause a man to go in the wrong direction. Arminians believe that a man, independently of God, can choose God. This is what the Bible denies.

Let me see if I have this straight. If I am not drawn by the Holy Spirit (what?, like in a lottery) then I will perish right. By this assumption, my free will really is irrelevant right? My fate was chosen by someone else anyways. Now the Arminian idea comes along, and I can choose god without knowing god? How can you choose what you don't know? Is this along the concept that acting in a moral and ethical sense of right is like choosing god without formally acknowledging him?

[franknhonest]

Basically it is a lottery yes. "Free will" is irrelevant. There are means through which the Spirit will work. One is the Bible. However it is still down to God's choice. I read the Bible for years and years without ever knowing salvation.

As you've just pointed out, Arminianism is heresy. You can choose things which are right (i.e. help someone out as opposed to fighting them) and this will affect the level of punishment after you die, but it wont do anything for salvation, because the Bible says again that even our righteous acts are like filthy rags in the sight of God.

By the way, I'm not a Christian. I just know my Bible better than most Christians do!

[Confused]

Basically it is a lottery yes. "Free will" is irrelevant. There are means through which the Spirit will work. One is the Bible. However it is still down to God's choice. I read the Bible for years and years without ever knowing salvation.

As you've just pointed out, Arminianism is heresy. You can choose things which are right (i.e. help someone out as opposed to fighting them) and this will affect the level of punishment after you die, but it wont do anything for salvation, because the Bible says again that even our righteous acts are like filthy rags in the sight of God.

By the way, I'm not a Christian. I just know my Bible better than most Christians do!

I will agree with your last point.

My question then: Is it your contention that man is born saved or damned. The life we live is irrelevant. God has his chosen and no-one can earn access to heaven regardless of their actions or choices. If so, what exactly is the purpose of life??

[methylatedghosts]

So there is free will and we are all going to heaven? I am trying to understand this post. Every path leads to the same place so hell doens't exist and regardless we will all return to heaven???

Sorry, I'm not always clear - happens when I'm trying to rush all my thoughts down at once

Yes - there is free will. God is only an observer - he doesn't care what you do either way.

Correct - hell does not exist. Regardless what we do, we all return - not to heaven - but to god. There is a difference.

Heaven and hell are made up places or realms that do not exist. Mythology provided the pretend games on that one. What I mean by "returning to god" is that we all were part of the whole - part of god. When god created the universe, he split himself up to create miniature gods, our souls. Therefore, when we die, when we leave physical existence, we return to god --- we ARE god.

I agree with christianity - that hell is the farthest we can be from god. That place is physical life, so the only place to go, is god

I find it funny that so many people drag themselves through hell to get to heaven.

[methylatedghosts]

Basically it is a lottery yes. "Free will" is irrelevant. There are means through which the Spirit will work. One is the Bible. However it is still down to God's choice. I read the Bible for years and years without ever knowing salvation.

As you've just pointed out, Arminianism is heresy. You can choose things which are right (i.e. help someone out as opposed to fighting them) and this will affect the level of punishment after you die, but it wont do anything for salvation, because the Bible says again that even our righteous acts are like filthy rags in the sight of God.

By the way, I'm not a Christian. I just know my Bible better than most Christians do!

So you're arguing against christianity with there own :2gun: weapon! Nice.

[Biker]

Gods law says "You have choice.You have freewill.But CHOOSE ME WITH FREE WILL. Or else.....". Now how is this free will?This looks like hobson's choice.

Where does it say that?

Biker