Is Trinitarianism heretical?

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McCulloch
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Is Trinitarianism heretical?

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

In another thread,
Tilia wrote:Trinitarianism is nowhere found in Scripture, and is grossly heretical.
The majority of the groups and organizations identified as Christian teach that there is one god in three persons. This teaching is called Trinitarianism and is supported by many creeds and statements of faith and centuries of Christian tradition. Groups and organizations opposed to Trinitarianism have historically been brutally persecuted and are currently declared as being heretical or, at least, hetrodoxical by most Christian denominations.

Is the majority wrong? Does the narrow path reject Trinitarianism? Did the Trinitarians only win due to greater political and military strength? Is there no biblical support for the cherished doctrine of the triune god?

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Post #141

Post by KnowJah »

1John2_26 wrote:
THE “FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION?”

Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation.” Does this verse teach that Jesus is a created being?

The expression “firstborn of all creation” in Colossians 1:15 has been interpreted in three different ways. First, the Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups have argued that it means that Jesus was the first creature created by God. Well, a text without a context is a pretext, and this definitely does not fit the context. After saying that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, Paul adds in verse 16, “Because all things were created in Him.” It simply makes no sense to say that Christ is the first creature because everything was created in Him. This is so obvious that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have added the word “other” four times to verses 16 and 17 to make Paul say that all other things were created in Christ.

The second explanation is that Christ is called the “firstborn of all creation” because, as the exalted incarnate Son of God, He is both created and the head in all creation. This explanation is consistent with the orthodox view of Christ, since orthodox Christianity teaches that Jesus is both the Creator God and a real human being. However, since verse 16 says that all things were created through Christ, and verse 17 says that Christ is before all things, Paul seems to be speaking in verses 16 and 17 of what Christ always has been and not merely of what He has become since exalted as a man.

The third explanation is that Christ is called the “firstborn of all creation” because the entire created universe was created in, through, and for Him as the eternal Son of God. This interpretation seems to fit the context and has been favored by the vast majority of biblical scholars. The one interpretation, of course, which is certainly wrong is the one which tries to make this verse prove that Jesus is not the Creator.
Revelations 3:14:
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God. (KJV)

Proverbs 8:22-31 refers to Jesus: The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.*


Jesus was working alongside him.
ESV translation mentions vrs. 30 I was beside him, like a master workman,and I was daily his[d] delight , and others too just as NWT says "master worker" alongside God.

So God was working through Jesus, he gave him the power to create all things, but the power still comes from God which is why Jesus should not get the credit as being our Creator.

Genesis 1:26 says: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.*

It is ridiculous to think that God is talking to himself when he says US.

John 1:18: 18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.*

John 3:16: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*

1 John 4:9: 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. *

*(KJV)

The word only begotten comes from beget which means to cause to exist.

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Post #142

Post by Meshugenah »

K.I.S.S.
Keep It Simple Scholar!

How Did YHVH create all things?
By His WORD/Messiah

How did Messiah co-exist before all creation?
He is The WORD of YHVH/Messiah!

Who is Messiah?
YHVH i.e. His WORD, The Creator & Savior of the world :lol:

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Post #143

Post by KnowJah »

And yet you ignore that Jesus had a begginning and that nowhere in the scriptures is Jesus called the Creator or even the Co-creator.

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Post #144

Post by Meshugenah »

I did not say anything about "Jesus!"

Look through your Bible "Jesus" (that is if we are talking about the same man i.e. "Yahshua") is the one who was born, that the Scripture/YHVH's WORD testifies would come; see Isa. ch9. This physical person would be known as Yahshua, whom you call "Jesus".

He is the Son of YHVH. "The Messiah" is the Person we would refer to as (the inner man) of Yahshua The WORD of YHVH.

This inner Person was/is the Creator.
Read the Gospel of John 1:1-14 at least!

By the way Col.1:15 says nothing about "Jesus" either.

You need to look beyond the physical to see the Supernatural.
YHVH is Spirit, Messiah is the same Spirit, Yahshua's Words were the same Spirit, "...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit & they are life". (John 6:63). Yahshua/Jesus was the physical man who lived & dwelt among us, was crucified, died, was buried & rose again, "physically". He is now known as Messiah & has returned to the same Glory He had with the Father before the world was. See John 17:5. He is The WORD of YHVH/Creator, who will return to judge the quick & the dead!

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Post #145

Post by youth_pastor »

Great topic! Although the word "trinity" is never used in the Bible, the doctrine of the Trinity is very clear throughout the Old and New Testaments.

The doctrine states that there is only one God. And that God reveals Himself in three distinct persons. In other words, there is one "what" and three "who's". Furtermore, the three persons of the Trinity have subject-object distinctions. For example, the Father loves the Son, the Son prays to the Father, the Father sends the Holy Spirit, and so on.

Contrary to "oneness" doctrines, Jesus makes it clear that He and the Father are two distinct witnesses and two distinct judges (John 8). So, we know that the three persons are eternally distinct.

One God revealed in three persons- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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Post #146

Post by youth_pastor »

KnowJah wrote:And yet you ignore that Jesus had a begginning and that nowhere in the scriptures is Jesus called the Creator or even the Co-creator.
Jesus did not have a beginning. He WAS IN the beginning, and without Him, nothing was made that has been made (John 1). He is the Alpha & Omega (the beginning & the end).

God did not create Jesus, the Son IS God. Jesus says "anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14).

Never give up your search for Truth... it will set you free.

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Post #147

Post by Meshugenah »

When you reference from Jn.14 "anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." You are contradicting yourself. If they were three "distinct" persons then He, Yahshua (the Son) is saying He is the Father!

To follow the traditions of men i.e. (including the church) is not following the Scriptures. Many Christians that I personally know & speak with often either condemn Jews for following the traditions of their fore fathers, or criticize them; & in doing so they themselves are holding to their church traditions. There is nothing of this trinity trash that can be proven by Scripture it is purely the teachings & doctrines of men!

I encourage anyone that is reading these threads, Study the Hebrew & Greek Scriptures. Stay away from reading "Christian commentaries" & their footnotes, they use these to justify or what they might tell you "clarifies" their beliefs.

1Jn.2:27 says you do not need anyone to teach you, His Spirit (His Anointing) that is in you will teach you.

Shalom
Mikha'el

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Post #148

Post by jjg »

We only know of the Trinity through supernatural revelation. this is what Christians believe that God reveals himslef to us. So through natural reasoning part of our understanding will always be mystery.

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Post #149

Post by Meshugenah »

You can trust the "supernatural revelation" of whatever spirit you choose to believe. The Scriptures teach us not to believe things from supernatural beings, even if we believe it were given to us from an angel of heaven.

Christians use the kinds of attempts that make themselves different in order to say; "we are the enlightened group", putting themselves above others.

I said that to say this, I believed in the idea of a trinity concept also at one point, when I followed the church doctrines. But all that has changed when I learned that the church has thrown out Yahweh's Word, & in doing so have dismissed themselves from the truth, holding on to church traditions & doctrines that I believe encourage believers to follow their deception with loyalty.

Shalom
Mikha'el

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Post #150

Post by jjg »

Well a human has a spiritual experience and sets it down in writing. This is true of Hebrew Scripture as well.

Christians believe that Christ was giving a message to all humanity and a good message to love God and your fellow man. They were not setting themselves apart.

The Christians converted barbarians and a empire through simple truths not by power or deception.

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