God and the Pharaoh

[Filthy Tugboat]

1) According to the Bible, god hardened Pharaoh's heart. If this is the case then how can Pharaoh be responsible for his actions? E.G., how can Pharaoh be responsible for his actions if God hardened his heart? Presumably if his heart wasn't hardened then he would have done something else.

God foreknew that Pharaoh would reject God at all cost, long before Pharaoh was even born. So he used him as a whipping boy for his people Israel.

Is the above statement accurate according to Abrahamic belief's and traditions?

If the Pharaoh would act the same way whether his heart was hardened or not, why did God harden his heart? What effect did that have?

[Peter]

IMO yahweh hardened Pharaohs heart because it racked up a better body count. You'll notice yahweh was all about the body count back then.

[ttruscott]

1) According to the Bible, god hardened Pharaoh's heart. If this is the case then how can Pharaoh be responsible for his actions? E.G., how can Pharaoh be responsible for his actions if God hardened his heart? Presumably if his heart wasn't hardened then he would have done something else.

God foreknew that Pharaoh would reject God at all cost, long before Pharaoh was even born. So he used him as a whipping boy for his people Israel.

Is the above statement accurate according to Abrahamic belief's and traditions?

If the Pharaoh would act the same way whether his heart was hardened or not, why did God harden his heart? What effect did that have?

Birth ≠ creation:
Pre-Conception Existence theology seems to stand alone against the idea put forth by scourge99 here that God foreknew that Pharaoh would reject God at all cost, long before Pharaoh was even born IF it means "long before he was even created" because

we contend that GOD did not decree the results of anyones's true free will decisions (not even the one who would later be born and live the life of the aforementioned Pharaoh) and therefore did not know before their creation what they would choose.

The order of events is thus:
- Pharaoh decided, by his own true free will decision, to reject GOD, self choosing to be non-elect
- GOD created the physical universe and the earth as the reform school for HIS sinful elect wherein they would learn the true eternal nature of the sinfulness of the non-elect by giving both groups (sinful elect and sinful non-elect each) predestined lives to HIS purpose
- GOD decided HE could use a non-elect sinner like Pharaoh in HIS plan for Israel and predestined his time on earth for that purpose.

Since his predestination to his role in Israel's religious politics came after his decision to eternally reject GOD's grace and will, the implications of the ideas that GOD knew his fate before his creation are wrong, though it does apply to his birth as an Egyptian human.

Peace, Ted

[Filthy Tugboat]

1) According to the Bible, god hardened Pharaoh's heart. If this is the case then how can Pharaoh be responsible for his actions? E.G., how can Pharaoh be responsible for his actions if God hardened his heart? Presumably if his heart wasn't hardened then he would have done something else.

God foreknew that Pharaoh would reject God at all cost, long before Pharaoh was even born. So he used him as a whipping boy for his people Israel.

Is the above statement accurate according to Abrahamic belief's and traditions?

If the Pharaoh would act the same way whether his heart was hardened or not, why did God harden his heart? What effect did that have?

Birth ≠ creation:
Pre-Conception Existence theology seems to stand alone against the idea put forth by scourge99 here that God foreknew that Pharaoh would reject God at all cost, long before Pharaoh was even born IF it means "long before he was even created" because

we contend that GOD did not decree the results of anyones's true free will decisions (not even the one who would later be born and live the life of the aforementioned Pharaoh) and therefore did not know before their creation what they would choose.

The order of events is thus:
- Pharaoh decided, by his own true free will decision, to reject GOD, self choosing to be non-elect
- GOD created the physical universe and the earth as the reform school for HIS sinful elect wherein they would learn the true eternal nature of the sinfulness of the non-elect by giving both groups (sinful elect and sinful non-elect each) predestined lives to HIS purpose
- GOD decided HE could use a non-elect sinner like Pharaoh in HIS plan for Israel and predestined his time on earth for that purpose.

Since his predestination to his role in Israel's religious politics came after his decision to eternally reject GOD's grace and will, the implications of the ideas that GOD knew his fate before his creation are wrong, though it does apply to his birth as an Egyptian human.

Peace, Ted

So, what Olavisjo advocates is not the same as your theology? And God merely used one person, who at some point before his birth chose not to be a part of the God Squad, as an example of why people should choose the God Squad? But wouldn't that choice already have been made prior to them being born and subsequently being able to learn from this? What is the point in providing people a reason why they should make a choice that they have already made and cannot make again? Or was the action of killing the Pharaoh and killing a whole lot of Egyptians for different reasons? The Bible states it is to show God's power and to proclaim his own glory. Whom is he showing his power to? His elect? What does it matter, they already chose the God Squad? To the non-elect? What does it matter, they already chose not to join the God Squad?

Can the pre-birth "true free will decision" be changed after birth? If so, how can God justify using the Pharaoh as he did when God was, as you say, unable to see or predestine a "true free will decision" and the Pharaoh may have made a second decision thereby changing to God's elect?

[scourge99]

Birth ≠ creation:
Pre-Conception Existence theology seems to stand alone against the idea put forth by scourge99 here that God foreknew that Pharaoh would reject God at all cost, long before Pharaoh was even born IF it means "long before he was even created" because

we contend that GOD did not decree the results of anyones's true free will decisions (not even the one who would later be born and live the life of the aforementioned Pharaoh) and therefore did not know before their creation what they would choose.

The order of events is thus:
- Pharaoh decided, by his own true free will decision, to reject GOD, self choosing to be non-elect
- GOD created the physical universe and the earth as the reform school for HIS sinful elect wherein they would learn the true eternal nature of the sinfulness of the non-elect by giving both groups (sinful elect and sinful non-elect each) predestined lives to HIS purpose
- GOD decided HE could use a non-elect sinner like Pharaoh in HIS plan for Israel and predestined his time on earth for that purpose.

Since his predestination to his role in Israel's religious politics came after his decision to eternally reject GOD's grace and will, the implications of the ideas that GOD knew his fate before his creation are wrong, though it does apply to his birth as an Egyptian human.

Peace, Ted

Last time I read the story about God hardening Pharaoh's heart, it mentioned nothing about God doing it because Pharaoh wasn't one of the elect or because God knew ahead of time that Pharaoh would always reject God. I think its clear you are inserting your own personal beliefs into the story when there is nothing in the story itself to support those beliefs.

In fact, according to the story, god explains why he hardened Pharaoh's heart. It was so God could advertize his power to all of Egypt. And he did this by making thousands of innocent people suffer with plagues.

[HiddenHand]

1) According to the Bible, god hardened Pharaoh's heart. If this is the case then how can Pharaoh be responsible for his actions? E.G., how can Pharaoh be responsible for his actions if God hardened his heart? Presumably if his heart wasn't hardened then he would have done something else.

God foreknew that Pharaoh would reject God at all cost, long before Pharaoh was even born. So he used him as a whipping boy for his people Israel.

Is the above statement accurate according to Abrahamic belief's and traditions?

If the Pharaoh would act the same way whether his heart was hardened or not, why did God harden his heart? What effect did that have?

Birth ≠ creation:
Pre-Conception Existence theology seems to stand alone against the idea put forth by scourge99 here that God foreknew that Pharaoh would reject God at all cost, long before Pharaoh was even born IF it means "long before he was even created" because

we contend that GOD did not decree the results of anyones's true free will decisions (not even the one who would later be born and live the life of the aforementioned Pharaoh) and therefore did not know before their creation what they would choose.

The order of events is thus:
- Pharaoh decided, by his own true free will decision, to reject GOD, self choosing to be non-elect
- GOD created the physical universe and the earth as the reform school for HIS sinful elect wherein they would learn the true eternal nature of the sinfulness of the non-elect by giving both groups (sinful elect and sinful non-elect each) predestined lives to HIS purpose
- GOD decided HE could use a non-elect sinner like Pharaoh in HIS plan for Israel and predestined his time on earth for that purpose.

Since his predestination to his role in Israel's religious politics came after his decision to eternally reject GOD's grace and will, the implications of the ideas that GOD knew his fate before his creation are wrong, though it does apply to his birth as an Egyptian human.

Peace, Ted

Wow, this is a stunning example of circular, illogical reasoning on God's part if pre-destination is indeed the case. The method negates the outcome, or any outcome for that matter. Without free will, creation kind of lacks purpose, doesn't it?

By this reasoning if I am not a Christian or even anti-Christian, am I part of the non-elect? If I choose to convert tomorrow, will I become part of HIS sinful elect? If so, will it make a difference if I was pre-determined to be a non-elect? If I change my life, proceed to be a devout Christian until I die, accepting Jesus Christ as my savior and following the scriptures, will God still reject me if I am non-elect? And if so, what is the point of following the teachings of Christ if we all are pre-destined to either be elect or non-elect? What is the point of evangelism?

The pre-destination theory has has so many holes of reason in it, I'm surprised it appears a reasonable idea to anyone at all.

In any case, I can prove to you that I have free will with ease. There. See? I did what I want.

Cheers

[antonenus]

I honestly think that the idea of people having chosen their destination before being born (in some pre-earth existence) is only accepted by christians who can't accept that God could be responsible for sending someone to hell, without them having any choice (which to me seems exactly what he has done to pharoah, and to Judas Iscariot - which was to fulfil scripture). This is because it contradicts all the verses which state God as loving, fair, just, ect. I came across this 'pharaoh' issue a while ago and my pastors response to my questions was along the line of Ted's idea, where pharaoh and judas must have made some decision to reject God before they were born and God created a big storyline which would be fulfilled no matter what around their choices. They (my pastors) had no scriptual evidence to support this pre-earth existence, and I have never found any.

If this pre-earth existence is real, I assume that people are given a choice whether to follow God or not, as his angels apparently had the chance. But in this situation, where God is (I assume) undeniable, how could anyone be stupid enough to choose hell over heaven?

So what is the point of Jesus coming to die for people who are predestined to be saved? And what's the point of telling people about Jesus if they're predestined to go to hell?

[Peter]

I honestly think that the idea of people having chosen their destination before being born (in some pre-earth existence) is only accepted by christians who can't accept that God could be responsible for sending someone to hell, without them having any choice (which to me seems exactly what he has done to pharoah, and to Judas Iscariot - which was to fulfil scripture). This is because it contradicts all the verses which state God as loving, fair, just, ect. I came across this 'pharaoh' issue a while ago and my pastors response to my questions was along the line of Ted's idea, where pharaoh and judas must have made some decision to reject God before they were born and God created a big storyline which would be fulfilled no matter what around their choices. They (my pastors) had no scriptual evidence to support this pre-earth existence, and I have never found any.

If this pre-earth existence is real, I assume that people are given a choice whether to follow God or not, as his angels apparently had the chance. But in this situation, where God is (I assume) undeniable, how could anyone be stupid enough to choose hell over heaven?

So what is the point of Jesus coming to die for people who are predestined to be saved? And what's the point of telling people about Jesus if they're predestined to go to hell?

Exactly. Christianity is a feel good story designed to appeal to the vast ignorant masses of yore. It works too, as long as you don't scrutinize it much.

To obviate the need for religion(hope) we need to come up with some real hope to take it's place.

[ttruscott]

...

So, what Olavisjo advocates is not the same as your theology?

As I said, it depends on what is meant by born; created or just the placement of a pre-created spirit into a human body,

And God merely used one person, who at some point before his birth chose not to be a part of the God Squad, as an example of why people should choose the God Squad? But wouldn't that choice already have been made prior to them being born and subsequently being able to learn from this? What is the point in providing people a reason why they should make a choice that they have already made and cannot make again? Or was the action of killing the Pharaoh and killing a whole lot of Egyptians for different reasons? The Bible states it is to show God's power and to proclaim his own glory. Whom is he showing his power to? His elect? What does it matter, they already chose the God Squad? To the non-elect? What does it matter, they already chose not to join the God Squad?

PCE Theology contends that the true free will decisions made pre-earth separated all of creation into three groups:
~ those who chose to accept GOD and received HIS promise of election;
~ those who rejected GOD and HIS promise of election, putting themselves outside of HIS grace, love and salvation forever and self creating their natures as completely unable to ever fulfill HIS purpose for their creation as they were now self created demons and devils, HIS eternal enemies;
~ and those elect who became evil in HIS sight by their idolatry of HIS eternal enemies, putting them before the will of GOD to damn them.

The earth was created as the rehab centre for the sinful elect, the wheat, populated with many of the non-elect, the tares. The predestined lives of these tares was to prove to the sinful elect that the ideas they got from the tares that they could be loved out of their sin or could be brought to repentance given enough time or would just live over there where they would never bother us, could be proven to be false and GOD must send them to damnation as HE warned before they chose to reject HIM because they thought HE was a false god with no power to see how rejecting him would work out.

The earth was not created as a place to find or reject GOD (from my pov) but a place to bring HIS sinful elect back to HIS church, as the verse so clearly says: 1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. Sheep being elect, going astray being choosing to be evil and returned being their coming to the cross of Christ.

To answer your questions from this pov one at a time:

And God merely used one person, who at some point before his birth chose not to be a part of the God Squad, as an example of why people should choose the God Squad?

No sir, because their choices are over. He was just an example of the lying nature of the eternally sinful who would never just live over there and leave HIS people alone.

But wouldn't that choice already have been made prior to them being born and subsequently being able to learn from this?

Yes, all the learning of HIS sinful elect has to do with the nature of evil. The non-elect learn nothing which is the reason that the natural consequence of their choice is damnation.

What is the point in providing people a reason why they should make a choice that they have already made and cannot make again?

I'm a little lost in the pronouns here but the only ones who can make a change are the sinful elect since they accepted HIS promise of election and the gospel promise of salvation...their whole life here is to get them to change their minds and return to embrace GOD as their first choice to do so, so long ago. Life is to bring them back to their first true free will choice to join HIS church.

Whom is he showing his power to? His elect? What does it matter, they already chose the God Squad?

Yes, they did but then they repudiated that choice and all of life is to bering them back to their first true free will position.

Can the pre-birth "true free will decision" be changed after birth?

Only the sinful elect can be brought back to their original true free will decision. They actually made two that count: 1. they accepted YHWH as their GOD and accepted HIS purpose for their creation but then 2. they rebelled against the damnation of the damned. They can be brought back to their first true free will decision because it was their very own.

But the damned rejected GOD and HIS purpose and HIS offer of salvation by their first true free will decision so they cannot be brought back to anything; it is not there.

GOD's desire to fill heaven ONLY with those who wanted what HE had to offer so much they would accept it on faith ie without proof by their own true free will, cannot be fulfilled by a person who only wants to change their mind because the truth of their horrible postion they were warned about is suddenly clear to them as real.

To get into heaven, you had to choose it by free will, not desperation and fear.

Peace Ted

[ttruscott]

...

By this reasoning if I am not a Christian or even anti-Christian, am I part of the non-elect? If I choose to convert tomorrow, will I become part of HIS sinful elect? If so, will it make a difference if I was pre-determined to be a non-elect? If I change my life, proceed to be a devout Christian until I die, accepting Jesus Christ as my savior and following the scriptures, will God still reject me if I am non-elect? And if so, what is the point of following the teachings of Christ if we all are pre-destined to either be elect or non-elect? What is the point of evangelism?

...

By this reasoning if I am not a Christian or even anti-Christian, am I part of the non-elect?

Only perhaps. I myself was very antagonistic to Christianity for many years and Saul murdered them in GOD's name before his conversion to Paul.

No one on earth can claim to know the pre-earth choices of another...well, we have a better guess about those like Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Idi Amin I guess.

If I choose to convert tomorrow, will I become part of HIS sinful elect?

No, a true conversion tomorrow would prove you were already a sinful elect.

If so, will it make a difference if I was pre-determined to be a non-elect?

I'm unsure of your meaning - those labeled the non-elect are self determined by free will decision be be non-elect. Nor can a non-elect convert to become a sinful elect. The choice to become a non-elect means they rejected election for eternity so they are outside of salvation eternally by their own choice.

If I change my life, proceed to be a devout Christian until I die, accepting Jesus Christ as my savior and following the scriptures, will God still reject me if I am non-elect?

A non-elect cannot do these things because the enslaving addiction of sin requires GOD's grace to break sin's hold on the mind and spirit to be able to do these things. The definition of non-elect is one who repudiated GOD's election and salvation by grace for ever.

And if so, what is the point of following the teachings of Christ if we all are pre-destined to either be elect or non-elect? What is the point of evangelism?

First, no one is / was predestinated to be elector sinful elect or non-elect - all these separations were self made by the true free will of each person, self determining their own fate.

The sinful elect are not here to find GOD but to return to GOD, hence the gospel of salvation which is HIS method of return. 1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep (elect) going astray, (choosing to become evil in HIS sight) but now you have returned (converted at the cross, reborn and indwelt by the Holy Spirit) to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

This does not apply to HIS eternal enemies, the non-elect tares that are forever outside of HIS salvation having rejected election by their own true free will. They are not here to find GOD but to help the sinful elect return to GOD.

Peace, Ted