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Justin108
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:57 am  What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion? Reply with quote

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 541: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:18 pm
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Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?




It takes a very long time to change religious beliefs , even when the evidence , supported by logic , is undeniable. Christians know that the claim , that Christ died for your sins , is NOT true. They , themselves , will tell you that , in order for sins to be forgiven , you , YOURSELF , must first REPENT !

Christ has no power to arbitrarily forgive anyone's sins because that would take away our free will. Since God The Father only wants those who freely CHOSE to want to be like him , " do his will ", it would be very unwise to force anybody to do things against their will.

However , since the Creation is spiritual in nature , and " sin as a spiritual reality DOES NOT EXIST ", those beings who continue in their sinful ways , must somehow be dealt with ! That's when the universal law of : " What Mercy can NOT rehabilitate , Justice will eventually ANNIHILATE ", comes into effect. No need for hell...you will be toast !


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 542: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:18 pm
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Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?




It takes a very long time to change religious beliefs , even when the evidence , supported by logic , is undeniable. Christians know that the claim , that Christ died for your sins , is NOT true. They , themselves , will tell you that , in order for sins to be forgiven , you , YOURSELF , must first REPENT !

Christ has no power to arbitrarily forgive anyone's sins because that would take away our free will. Since God The Father only wants those who freely CHOSE to want to be like him , " do his will ", it would be very unwise to force anybody to do things against their will.

However , since the Creation is spiritual in nature , and " sin as a spiritual reality DOES NOT EXIST ", those beings who continue in their sinful ways , must somehow be dealt with ! That's when the universal law of : " What Mercy can NOT rehabilitate , Justice will eventually ANNIHILATE ", comes into effect. No need for hell...you will be toast !


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 543: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:19 pm
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kayky wrote:

The death and resurrection of Jesus can only be understood in mythic terms as a spiritual path of rebirth. Taken literally, the story makes no sense whatsoever. The very idea that God requires bloodshed in order to be appeased is one of the most primitive of religious ideas.



Why is the death and resurrection of Jesus only understandable in mythical terms ? Are you saying that all those people , who witnessed his death and resurrection , were delusional ?


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The very idea that God requires bloodshed in order to be appeased is one of the most primitive of religious ideas.


One " lie " always leads to another. When the claim is made that " Christ died for your sins " , all kinds of moral and ethical questions arise and yours is one of those. In order to " justify and condone " God's absolutely abhorrent behaviour , biblical Christians become just like their God : immoral and unethical .

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 544: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:19 pm
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It is odd to me that people believe a human sacrifice was necessary to forgive humans for being fallible instead of God, being God, just forgiving. Why torture a person to death for vicarious redemption for the sins of man? The whole human sacrifice redemption motif is common in ancient cultures that predates Christianity by thousands of years. Virgins were thrown into volcanos to appease some angry God, children were buried in the foundation of buildings to prevent the building from collapsing as punishment from God, and people suspected of being witches were set ablaze to "do God's will."

It's disappointing that Christian apologists won't consider the abundant historical records and the archeaological findings that plainly demonstrate the entire Judeo-Christian is based on myth and worship rituals of ancient man, when man knew less about the natural world than a ten year old child today. If we could move past this nonsense, mankind could begin having a real discussion regarding ethics and morality. Sadly, fear of making this mind shift prevents many from moving to intellectual freedom.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 545: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:50 pm
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mchristos606 wrote:

kayky wrote:

The death and resurrection of Jesus can only be understood in mythic terms as a spiritual path of rebirth. Taken literally, the story makes no sense whatsoever. The very idea that God requires bloodshed in order to be appeased is one of the most primitive of religious ideas.



Why is the death and resurrection of Jesus only understandable in mythical terms ? Are you saying that all those people , who witnessed his death and resurrection , were delusional ?


Here is a challenge to you. Can you produce any writings from anybody who actually witnessed his death an resurrection? Can you relay any of their first hand accounts?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 546: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:20 pm
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Goat wrote:

mchristos606 wrote:

kayky wrote:

The death and resurrection of Jesus can only be understood in mythic terms as a spiritual path of rebirth. Taken literally, the story makes no sense whatsoever. The very idea that God requires bloodshed in order to be appeased is one of the most primitive of religious ideas.



Why is the death and resurrection of Jesus only understandable in mythical terms ? Are you saying that all those people , who witnessed his death and resurrection , were delusional ?


Here is a challenge to you. Can you produce any writings from anybody who actually witnessed his death an resurrection? Can you relay any of their first hand accounts?



Everything that happens in the universe is recorded. How else can you be " judged " ? Below are the universal records of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. Please note the DETAILED description of events !





http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-187-crucifixion

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-188-time-tomb

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-189-resurrection


P.S. Don't let the " strange " names like Urantia bother you. It's just the universal name for planet Earth.








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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 547: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:29 pm
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Mchristos606 wrote...

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Everything that happens in the universe is recorded.


How is it you know this information and others don't and make claims like the above without substantiating your claims? If I told you I read in a book that by saying a certain prayer you were guaranteed $100,000 within two days, you would likely doubt my claim based on known reality, and ask me for evidence of my claim. Why should I not ask the same of you?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 548: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:18 pm
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czyz wrote:

Mchristos606 wrote...

Quote:
Everything that happens in the universe is recorded.


How is it you know this information and others don't and make claims like the above without substantiating your claims? If I told you I read in a book that by saying a certain prayer you were guaranteed $100,000 within two days, you would likely doubt my claim based on known reality, and ask me for evidence of my claim. Why should I not ask the same of you?




I wouldn't care what evidence , or lack thereof , you had !! The only thing that would count is whether I got the money.


In the post # 546 , I have provided 3 links dealing with Christ's crucifixion. I would suggest that you carefully read the DETAILED account of the events which transpired as described in The Truth Book ,and afterwards you should take your Bible and compare. Now you'll have two different source from which to judge if the events actually occurred.

As I said before....please provide evidence that you are a human being and not " Watson " !


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 549: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:39 pm
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mchristos606 wrote:



P.S. Don't let the " strange " names like Urantia bother you. It's just the universal name for planet Earth.



We have had people push that book here before. For some reason, I was not impressed with what it said.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 550: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:52 pm
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Jesus didn't need to die for our sins.

What did Jesus say to the tax collector Zacchaeus?

"Today, Salvation has come to this house"

That was before Jesus died of course and John the Baptist message was Salvation by baptism, love and compassion and a contrite heart for God.

Atonement by blood was a post resurrection idea that Paul spread about the place. Obviously at the time he hadn't heard the story of Zacchaeus. Why would he, it wasn't probably written at the time? Or if it had, Paul hadn't seen it. It was that sort of age. No printing presses or fax and just a few scribbled notes. That got copied with the usual errors and copied again and again with errors and so errors on errors etc.

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