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Justin108
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:57 am  What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion? Reply with quote

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 61: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:52 am
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einstein wrote:

This is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective which I should state from the onset is Jewish. The Christian doctrine of Redemption depends on the belief in original sin, which is not found in the Hebrew Bible.


I think that depends on what do you think sin means.

I have understood that sin is that person rejects or abandons God or lives without God.
So original sin became when Adam and Eve abandoned God and were forced to leave the Garden of Eden. Story found in the OT. Because of the event in the beginning, all people are separated from God and so live in the original sin. Therefore I think original sin is really in the Hebrew Bible, if it includes the story of Adam and Eve.

And because all are separated from God and so live in sin, Jesus was sent to teach the way back and help us to leave the original sin and become righteous.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 62: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:22 pm
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Peter wrote:

Morphine wrote:
Maybe its because it makes the sacrifice a little less powerful. "He gave his only begotten son!.... then got him back."


Exactly, since the age of 12 I've wondered what jesus really sacrificed when he "shuffled off his mortal coil" and became a god. When I ask how is that such a great sacrifice all I get is "Well, it hurt really bad".
Rolling Eyes

IMO it's all utter nonsense held together loosely by fear and hope.

Why can't people understand that death is nothing to fear? Death is what makes Life so special. If Life was eternal it would be worthless.

And the hope placed in an imaginary father in the sky should instead be placed in our fellow man. The wasted energy, money and time devoted to imaginary gods simply boggles my mind. Sad

In reference to the bold, I suppose these elements and/or the lack of them helped to enable me to break free from my indoctrination.
I don't fear death too much. There are many things worst than death. And a world without video games and premarital sex is one of them.
I believe in myself and others. So hope in a divine being that I only read about, doesn't do anything for me.

Like you said, fear and hope...

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 63: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:44 pm
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princeshakaz wrote:

Many individuals do not understand that the bible is a book which speaks of spiritual things to awaken the spiritual being within. For the spiritual being within has been held captive in chains of ignorance due to our lack of spiritual knowledge. Now jesus did not die for the sins of humanity this is another selfish action of humanity to make an individual the scapegoat for their sins which is self centered actions. God sent jesus like all other prophets to spread god consciousness which would be selflessness and genuine love not conditional love which most of the world is well acquainted with. Jesus was killed because his teachings awakened a consciousness in individuals that threatened the current structure of the government. Jesus did not die for the sins of men jesus died for preaching the gospel. Humanity must deny self and take responsibility for own actions and stop lying that god sent jesus here to die for our sins. Jesus came to do the will of god which was teach and like those before him he paid the price for his teachings went against the selfish consciousness of the current world and so he was killed


Which gospels were around at the time of Jesus for him to preach?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 64: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:42 pm
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1213 wrote:

einstein wrote:

This is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective which I should state from the onset is Jewish. The Christian doctrine of Redemption depends on the belief in original sin, which is not found in the Hebrew Bible.


I think that depends on what do you think sin means.

I have understood that sin is that person rejects or abandons God or lives without God.
So original sin became when Adam and Eve abandoned God and were forced to leave the Garden of Eden. Story found in the OT. Because of the event in the beginning, all people are separated from God and so live in the original sin. Therefore I think original sin is really in the Hebrew Bible, if it includes the story of Adam and Eve.

And because all are separated from God and so live in sin, Jesus was sent to teach the way back and help us to leave the original sin and become righteous.


There are different words in Hebrew which are often mistranslated in English under the general term "sin". No one is denying the Edenic story in the Bible where Adam and Eve committed a "chet". What I am refuting is the entire dogmatic theory that this sin was inherited by all of mankind, that man is depraved from the start and helpless to overcome this state of sin by his own means.

I have yet to see verses from the Hebrew Bible that truly support the idea of original sin. Sure, man has an evil and a good inclination- but we do not inherit Adam's transgression. On the other hand, there are many verses in the Hebrew Bible which stress free will, the opportunity to do good, and amend wrongs and descriptions of people who are termed "righteous" who earn God's favour. If they are "righteous" they have not inherited Adam's sin.

As just one example look at Gen 4:7 where God tells Cain he can overcome the evil inclination:





7. Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, BUT YOU CAN RULE OVER IT."

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 65: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:11 pm
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Re: What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion?

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Justin108 wrote:

briandc wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?


I suppose God didn't "have to" do anything at all. However, I think He intentionally made things such that man would be free to fall, and He would be willing to purify us all again by taking our place.

And I'm saying he didn't HAVE to take our place.

God "took a bullet" for us so to speak... but he didn't have to. He could have made the bullet just disappear if he wanted to. Why didn't he?

Not to mention the fact that HE was the one who shot the bullet. He created hell himself and now he's saving us from it?

Who sends us to hell? God
So why does he have to kill Jesus in order to stop himself from sending us to hell?


I don't think He "had to" do it. Perhaps it was to demonstrate that He is not "above" us, but lowly, a servant, and even sent to death unjustly.

Jesus reassured the disciples that the Father was/is just like he was: meek, lowly, forgiving, understanding, gentle. Everything Jesus was, God is.
That should put us all at ease! Smile

brian

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 66: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:45 pm
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Re: What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion?

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Tex wrote:

Goat wrote:

Tex wrote:

Goat wrote:

Tex wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?


You see.....The thing about God, is that God is the "master planner" And God will always do thing that we as humans will never understand.
So your question are just that....A way of trying to hurt are beliefs.

How can I, a creation ever understand God? IN the things I do....I Do. IN the thing I do not I must trust. I trust God because he was willing to give up that which he loved the most, in order to save what he could destroy in a blink of an eye.

We all have choices to make. One of them is to give your soul to God. If you do not, then you will never be able to withstand Satan.
Satan in heaven is too dangerous.


Can you show that 'God is the master planner'. Is that anything more than a statement of belief? Or , is that just an excuse to try to make sense of stories that otherwise don't make sense.

Can you provide any evidence that "God is a master planner', or is that just one of those 'unsupported claims' I keep on hearing about.



Read the NT.


I have. It has the aura of myth and legend to me.



It's not. It's about real people and the history of the life of Christ.
So ....you don't have to believe it...But don't try and tell me it's not true.


Really?? Does bringing people back from the dead, walking on water, turning water into wine, preaching to multitudes, and not having anybody but a few select people notice sound historical to you?? It doesn't to me.
[/quote]

And my viewpoint is based on this little thing known as 'evidence' and 'verification'.

You might say it's 'nothing'.. but.. well.. it at least is not an unsupported claim.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 67: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:36 pm
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1213 wrote:

einstein wrote:

This is a very interesting topic. Here is my perspective which I should state from the onset is Jewish. The Christian doctrine of Redemption depends on the belief in original sin, which is not found in the Hebrew Bible.


I think that depends on what do you think sin means.

I have understood that sin is that person rejects or abandons God or lives without God.
So original sin became when Adam and Eve abandoned God and were forced to leave the Garden of Eden. Story found in the OT. Because of the event in the beginning, all people are separated from God and so live in the original sin. Therefore I think original sin is really in the Hebrew Bible, if it includes the story of Adam and Eve.

And because all are separated from God and so live in sin, Jesus was sent to teach the way back and help us to leave the original sin and become righteous.


So God set up a system, where he took two innocents who did not yet have an understanding of good and evil/ right and wrong - put a tree with delicious apples on it, and punished them eternally for committing an act they could not have known was wrong or evil?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 68: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:44 pm
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Re: What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion?

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Goat wrote:

Tex wrote:

Goat wrote:

Tex wrote:

Goat wrote:

Tex wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?


You see.....The thing about God, is that God is the "master planner" And God will always do thing that we as humans will never understand.
So your question are just that....A way of trying to hurt are beliefs.

How can I, a creation ever understand God? IN the things I do....I Do. IN the thing I do not I must trust. I trust God because he was willing to give up that which he loved the most, in order to save what he could destroy in a blink of an eye.

We all have choices to make. One of them is to give your soul to God. If you do not, then you will never be able to withstand Satan.
Satan in heaven is too dangerous.


Can you show that 'God is the master planner'. Is that anything more than a statement of belief? Or , is that just an excuse to try to make sense of stories that otherwise don't make sense.

Can you provide any evidence that "God is a master planner', or is that just one of those 'unsupported claims' I keep on hearing about.



Read the NT.


I have. It has the aura of myth and legend to me.



It's not. It's about real people and the history of the life of Christ.
So ....you don't have to believe it...But don't try and tell me it's not true.


Really?? Does bringing people back from the dead, walking on water, turning water into wine, preaching to multitudes, and not having anybody but a few select people notice sound historical to you?? It doesn't to me.


Quote:
And my viewpoint is based on this little thing known as 'evidence' and 'verification'.

You might say it's 'nothing'.. but.. well.. it at least is not an unsupported claim.
[/quote]


All I can say....Is thank God you were not born blind. You wouldn't believe anything.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 69: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:02 am
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Tex wrote:
All I can say....Is thank God you were not born blind. You wouldn't believe anything.


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 70: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:58 am
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Re: What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion?

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briandc wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

briandc wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?


I suppose God didn't "have to" do anything at all. However, I think He intentionally made things such that man would be free to fall, and He would be willing to purify us all again by taking our place.

And I'm saying he didn't HAVE to take our place.

God "took a bullet" for us so to speak... but he didn't have to. He could have made the bullet just disappear if he wanted to. Why didn't he?

Not to mention the fact that HE was the one who shot the bullet. He created hell himself and now he's saving us from it?

Who sends us to hell? God
So why does he have to kill Jesus in order to stop himself from sending us to hell?


I don't think He "had to" do it. Perhaps it was to demonstrate that He is not "above" us, but lowly, a servant, and even sent to death unjustly.




2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just

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