Christian Forums ...Why?

[KCKID]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

[charles_hamm]

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

Your god is rather keen on punishing children for the mistakes of the parents, isn't he? Does that make the gestapo godly?

No He punishes the wicked. The older children actually could be held accountable for their actions since they were told about God and had a choice to believe and turn from their wicked ways. The infants were covered under God's grace because they were not old enough to be given the opportunity to choose. There was no punishment for them. They would be taken to Heaven.

So the gestapo killed for a human ruler. God killed because He passed His judgement on the world based on the rules that He created for all men. Comparison doesn't really work to well.

Oh there are so many cases charles, so many.......Let me see, I'll start at the beginning, how about that. The children being punished for the mistake of the parents. Right from the get go. At least he started how he intended to continue.

So God, who already had an example of humans choosing to disobey, should have just let any children come back? Also, who were these children who were in the garden? If none were there then guess what, they were not punished by being expelled. Interesting thing is, the discipline, believers receive discipline non believers receive punishment, is meant as a reminder to trust and listen to God.

[charles_hamm]

So are you saying you don't believe in defending people who are oppressed? I like it more when people such as Pharaoh listen and take the chance they are given. If God was a blood-lusting God then why hasn't He killed all of the non believers in this day and age? Maybe He's turning the other cheek for awhile.

Because God doesn't exist. Yet, some crazy theists will set off a nuke and claim God commanded it.

Obviously, since they killed their enemy, their God is the right one...

Which religion, do you think, is most likely to do that? I don't know, but I think Islam and Christianity are the leading ones.

It fits into their ad hoc reasoning for massacres.

Prove it. You keep saying "because God doesn't exist". It's starting to sound like Christians who say "because God said so".

[charles_hamm]

Meanwhile, all of this can be explained that it's all a mythology. That it was just men and women trying to make sense of life, war, misery, death, etc.
None of these tales require a God to exist.

And yet the Bible is all about God. So even though he is not "required" by you he is still present. Might mean He exist, don't you think.

[southern cross]

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

Your god is rather keen on punishing children for the mistakes of the parents, isn't he? Does that make the gestapo godly?

No He punishes the wicked. The older children actually could be held accountable for their actions since they were told about God and had a choice to believe and turn from their wicked ways. The infants were covered under God's grace because they were not old enough to be given the opportunity to choose. There was no punishment for them. They would be taken to Heaven.

So the gestapo killed for a human ruler. God killed because He passed His judgement on the world based on the rules that He created for all men. Comparison doesn't really work to well.

Oh there are so many cases charles, so many.......Let me see, I'll start at the beginning, how about that. The children being punished for the mistake of the parents. Right from the get go. At least he started how he intended to continue.

So God, who already had an example of humans choosing to disobey, should have just let any children come back? Also, who were these children who were in the garden? If none were there then guess what, they were not punished by being expelled. Interesting thing is, the discipline, believers receive discipline non believers receive punishment, is meant as a reminder to trust and listen to God.

I think you are waist deep in an Egyptian river.

[Goat]

Your thought might work except for the fact that it would God who gave the very meaning of morality and ethics. So no a special case is not needed here. I would interested to see what you deem as moral and then what you deem as a suitable punishment, if you think one should be punished, for immoral behavior.

What's not reasonable or logical to is to justify the actions of these groups of people. You have to do that in order to say they did not deserve punishment. Any argument beyond that is simply a personal opinion on what level of punishment they deserve. So the question becomes, are you justifying the actions of the groups above?

Why should that matter?? So, you think that God should follow the same standards he makes for someone else?? That sounds like , totally absurd. It is interesting the lengths someone will go to justify the acts attributed in God in the stories, but, well, it makes that whole 'moral and ethics comes from God' claim so very illogical.

[charles_hamm]

Your thought might work except for the fact that it would God who gave the very meaning of morality and ethics. So no a special case is not needed here. I would interested to see what you deem as moral and then what you deem as a suitable punishment, if you think one should be punished, for immoral behavior.

What's not reasonable or logical to is to justify the actions of these groups of people. You have to do that in order to say they did not deserve punishment. Any argument beyond that is simply a personal opinion on what level of punishment they deserve. So the question becomes, are you justifying the actions of the groups above?

Why should that matter?? So, you think that God should follow the same standards he makes for someone else?? That sounds like , totally absurd. It is interesting the lengths someone will go to justify the acts attributed in God in the stories, but, well, it makes that whole 'moral and ethics comes from God' claim so very illogical.

You still didn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again. Are you justifying the actions of the groups that God judged? If not, then why is punishing them immoral or unethical?

[Bust Nak]

Maybe, maybe not. If Pharaoh saw the Jews as a threat then what's to say he would not look for them and try to kill all of them.

We are talking about godlike powers here, if I can change his mind about freeing the slaves, I can change his mind about going out and killing them. If I can spirit the slaves away, I can stop his army from finding them. There are any number of ways of avoiding any bloodshed given godlike powers.

He chased them even after God killed the first borns. What makes you think he would not go out and look for them if they just disappeared?

Simple deduction is what makes me think that his death would make him not go out and look for them; Mind control would do it; Shielding the Jews with angels would do it; Killing the first borns didn't do it. Out of these options which one would you choose?

That's not true at all. You are now assuming that all these people did not want to do the wrongs they did. There's no possible way you can know this.

Try putting yourself in their shoes, imagine what it would be like to live in Germany in the 40's.

We know that after people are freed and after these wrongs have been discovered people do say that had to do it to stay alive. You can look at the Germans who would say they had no idea a concentration camp was only half a mile down the road. It made no sense but they wanted nothing to do with what was found. During the actions, nobody knows how they felt.

Would it be justice to kill all the Germans at the conclusion of WW2, why or why not?

[charles_hamm]

Maybe, maybe not. If Pharaoh saw the Jews as a threat then what's to say he would not look for them and try to kill all of them.

We are talking about godlike powers here, if I can change his mind about freeing the slaves, I can change his mind about going out and killing them. If I can spirit the slaves away, I can stop his army from finding them. There are any number of ways of avoiding any bloodshed given godlike powers.

That would violate free will to choose to believe in God. There are also any number of ways of avoiding it if he had simply listened to Gods messenger.

He chased them even after God killed the first borns. What makes you think he would not go out and look for them if they just disappeared?

Simple deduction is what makes me think that his death would make him not go out and look for them; Mind control would do it; Shielding the Jews with angels would do it; Killing the first borns didn't do it. Out of these options which one would you choose?

That's not true at all. You are now assuming that all these people did not want to do the wrongs they did. There's no possible way you can know this.

Try putting yourself in their shoes, imagine what it would be like to live in Germany in the 40's.

"When good men do nothing, evil triumphs". Edmund Burke. The Germans, whether afraid or not, stood by and did nothing. Put yourself in the shoes of the French in Paris, civilians who stood up to the Germans. Many died, but they helped to liberate their capital. Neither you no I know if the German people condoned what Hitler did. The only thing we have to go by are their actions.

We know that after people are freed and after these wrongs have been discovered people do say that had to do it to stay alive. You can look at the Germans who would say they had no idea a concentration camp was only half a mile down the road. It made no sense but they wanted nothing to do with what was found. During the actions, nobody knows how they felt.

Would it be justice to kill all the Germans at the conclusion of WW2, why or why not?

No it would not, because I lack proof and I can't know the ways of their hearts, i.e. their intentions. That is something only the individual and God know.

[southern cross]

Maybe, maybe not. If Pharaoh saw the Jews as a threat then what's to say he would not look for them and try to kill all of them.

We are talking about godlike powers here, if I can change his mind about freeing the slaves, I can change his mind about going out and killing them. If I can spirit the slaves away, I can stop his army from finding them. There are any number of ways of avoiding any bloodshed given godlike powers.

That would violate free will to choose to believe in God. There are also any number of ways of avoiding it if he had simply listened to Gods messenger.

Let me see, violate a mans free will or slaughter innocents? Easy..........slaughter innocents, but then your god has plenty of form.

[Ooberman]

Apparently Free Will trumps the Right to Life, in the mind of the Christian's God. Why?

Because the reality is that we seem to have Free Will and many use it to kill. It has to be explained somehow, so Christians make Free Will the most Godly thing.

It's ad hoc reasoning. If we we had some evolved trait to not kill, Christians would say that killing is the one thing God wouldn't tolerate - that he alone was in charge of Life and Death.

There is no answer a theist can't answer, they are always right because they believe themselves to be right.

"Because God Did It." is the Omni-answer. Why this? Why that? Why anything?

Because God Did It.

An answer that can answer every question is a useless answer.

Why did God do it that way? Why didn't God make us all more like Jesus, without sin in our hearts?

Because God Did It. Don't ask so many questions and repent....