A place for good non-believers

[lostguest]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

[charles_hamm]

I could ask the same of you. Where does your "charge" against people end?

It will end when they quit charging me. My response to the accusations of the Bible are rebuttal to charges that have indeed been made against me by "Christiandom", and by various authors of the bible themselves. Such as Paul and the author of Psalms, etc.

In fact, ironically Jesus himself was never even portrayed as supporting this nonsense. On the contrary there are many verses attributed to Jesus that support just the opposite.

I'm afraid that in my opinion you are justifying your insinuations while condeming mine and that does not fly.

Sure it flies.

If you believe that you can say to me, "You have everything you need to believe in the Biblical God", and proclaim that you are not intending to insult me. Then how in the world can you claim that it would be insulting to you if I return the favor by telling you that, "You have everything you need to recognize that the biblical fables can't possibly be true".

We are at a dead stand-off at that point. We can either insist on continuing to insult each other OR we can chose to do the following:

You go ahead and believe in the Bible for yourself and quit beating me over the head with your rubber Jesus doll.

And I'll go ahead and recognize that the Bible doesn't have any more merit than Greek mythology.

Then we can both respect each other for having come to our own conclusions.

When you proclaim to me that I have everything I need to believe in your religion you are insinuating that, for whatever reason, you believe that I'm too stupid to understand it.

Well, if you're going to take that stance and stand by it tenaciously, then I'll take my stance that you have everything you need to see through the Biblical nonsense.

In other words, if you're going to use your religion to insult me, I'll return the favor.

This would have never even come up if you were arrogantly proclaiming that I have everything I need to believe in your religion in the first place. So you are the one who "Cast the first stone" so-to-speak.

I personally don't care if you believe in Zeus. But if you start beating me over the head with Zeus proclaiming that I have everything I need to believe in Zeus too, then you are the one who is starting trouble, not me.

Change Zeus to Yahweh or Jesus and you haven't change a thing.

The fact that your insinuations don't involve anyone rejecting or failing a God is not justification for making them. That is not free reign to do as you please and make the insinuations.

You're right. I agree. My justification for making them is because they are Righteous Rebuttal to your accusations which were cast FIRST.

If you're going to insinuate that I have everything I need to believe in your religion, then I have every right to offer my views that you have everything you need to see that they are nonsense.

That's my honest view. So there you go.

I must ask since you have said I made "such an utterly absurd and offensive charge" are you saying that you accept the Christian God? You keep using the word 'a' in front of God and I do not so I am obviously talking about one God, the Christian God. I have never accused or implied anybody has rejected any "God" since I am only speaking about the Christian God.

Well, perhaps this is the difference between you and I.

I view the term "God" to be referring to the actual entity that created this universe (if such an entity exists).

You, on the other hand are using the term only to refer to the "god" of Hebrew mythology. You need to remember that the Greeks also referred to Zeus as "God". Are you rejecting the God Zeus? Or do you simply realize that the Greek picture of God was wrong?

The fact that Chrisitanity acts like they have a patent on "God" is what make them so overbearingly arrogant.

I have no problem with "God" (i.e. the creator of the universe if such an entity exists). But I do have a problem with the arrogance of Christianity and their religious bigotry.,

In fact, I don't even have a problem with "Jesus" in much the same way as Mahatma Gandhi puts it:

"I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians".

If you have been offended like Divine Insight seems to have been by my analogy then I would like to present this question to any person who would like to answer:
If you feel that you do not "reject" the Christian God or for that matter the very notion that there is a Christian God, then are are you saying you accept the Christian God or the notion of the Christian God since acceptance is the opposite of rejection?

No, that's word-twisting on your part. It's also gross denial of the Christian arrogance to proclaim that only their God is the one true God and that all other pictures of God are false.

Do you "reject" Zeus? I certainly hope not, because if you do that would imply that you actually believe that Zeus is a "Real God". If you believe that Greek mythology is just man-made superstitions then you don't believe that there is a Zeus to "reject".

But yes, if we're going to get into "rejecting" fictitious mythological fallacies, then yes, I most certainly do reject the Biblical God. IMHO, even as a fictitious character he's disgusting. I wouldn't worship him. He's pathetic and totally unworthy of worship. And if the we add the Christian idea that Jesus was supposedly the "Sacrificial Lamb" of this God, that makes him even more pathetic and disgusting.

So, yes, as a mythological fictional character I most certainly would reject the God of Christianity. Why would I want to worship such an ignorant self-proclaimed "Jealous" God who apparently doesn't have the maturity of even an adolescent human. He supposedly can't even control his own angry and wrath.

If he were to exist he would be an absolute pathetic God, IMHO, totally unworthy of anyone's worship.

The only reason to "Worship" the Biblical God would be to avoid his immature uncontrollable wrath.

IMHO, that's an absolutely disgusting reason to worship any deity.

Now you may be thinking, "How can this guy say such horrible things about my religion?"

Well, the answer to that is quite simple. You are attempting to "push" your religion onto me by proclaiming that I have "Everything I Need" to believe in it.

In other words, you're trying to pull Paul's stunt of trying to proclaim that men are without excuse for not believing in his picture of God.

Well, Charles, if you're going to take that stance then why should I have any qualms at all about telling you just how utterly ugly and ignorant I think your religion is?

If you're going to use your religion as a battering ram to proclaim that there is something "wrong" with me for not believing in it by insinuating that I have everything I need to know that it's "true", then why should I hold back any stops when it comes to being quite frank with you about just how ugly and ignorant I think the religion is?

I see no reason to pretend otherwise.

IMHO, and so-called "God" who would be involved in having his son nailed to a pole as a symbol of his "LOVE" for mankind deserves to institutionalized in a mental hospital for Gods.

That's my honest assessment Charles.

If you find this offensive, that's just too bad. There is no way that I could ever imagine a truly divine all-wise God asking people to condone having his son nailed to a pole to pay for their sins.

Even if that actually needed to be done for some weird reason, it would still be highly ignorant.

The religion is basically saying that the only way I can receive this God's love is to first condone having his son beaten and nailed to a pole on my behalf.

What?

That's basically telling me that I must condone what I consider to be a highly immoral act on my behalf before this God will even consider loving me?

That, my friend, is the most utterly absurd thing I can imagine.

There has to be something wrong with the religion. And of course there clearly is, because there are countless other reasons to dismiss it as well.

So I have every reason to reject it.

Precisely the opposite of what you are attempting to claim.

I really don't even know where to start with this. The "charge" in the Bible applies to all non-believers in Jesus, not just you. Nobody singled you out there.

As for the fact that you somehow think your insinuations are "justified", that just shows that it is your religious views that have arrogance, not mine. BAD, I never stated anyone was stupid. A person can choose to not believe even if there is enough information due to conflicting beliefs, denial of the information, etc, etc.

As I have said before and will continue to say, you have your reasons to reject it Christianity.

[Divine Insight]

I really don't even know where to start with this. The "charge" in the Bible applies to all non-believers in Jesus, not just you. Nobody singled you out there.

Who said anything about anyone being "singled out"? I certainly didn't.

I'm a human on planet Earth. A human that recognizes Hebrew mythology as being clearly false. This mythology is making charges against all humans. Being a human, this automatically gives me the right to rebuttal.

So my response is from a humanitarian point of view. This religion causes division between humans. It corrupts some humans into using this religion to belittle and degrade their brothers and sisters on Planet Earth. From my perspective this is a cancer on humanity that serves no good purpose and only causes division and animosity.

You are the one who is taking this mythology seriously enough to actually insinuate and accuse other humans of "Having everything they need to believe".

I reject your charge as being utterly absurd. My position is just the opposite. I believe that you "Have everything you need to be able to see through these ancient superstitious fables"

You're charge to me, supports the fables and therefore supports their charges that I'm deserving of condemnation and supposedly rejecting my creator.

My charge to you is to simply wake-up and realize that this religion is just causing you to accusing other people of rejecting a creator when there is no truth to that charge.

I don't care whether these fables are false, or true. Neither case does it follow that I'm "rejecting my creator". Nothing could be further from the truth.

So if these ancient Hebrews have you believing that I am at odds with my creator or rejecting the creator of reality (if one exists) in any way, then these fables have you believing a lie. Moreover, they are causing you to judge me falsely on this very matter.

If a God exists, I confess to this God that from my perspective the Biblical fables appear to be utterly stupid. Far too stupid to be representative of an all-wise God, and for this reason I reject them entirely.

And that, my friend is the TRUTH.

Now what would you have me do? LIE to this God and pretend that I can believe that the Biblical fables represent something intelligent?

No, I'm not going to do that to appease you or anyone else.

If a God exists I'm going to be TRUTHFUL with that God, and if TRUTH isn't good enough for God then TRUTH has no value at all.

So as far as I'm concerned I'm as righteous as they come. The Christians are constantly after me asking me to live a LIE, and I refuse to do it. '

The biblical fables of the ancient Hebrews is IMHO, ignorant, immoral, and quite frankly outright stupid in many places. I am not about to believe that the creator of reality is ignorant, immoral, and stupid.

Sorry of that offends you in anyway, but it's just my TRUTH.

As for the fact that you somehow think your insinuations are "justified", that just shows that it is your religious views that have arrogance, not mine. BAD, I never stated anyone was stupid. A person can choose to not believe even if there is enough information due to conflicting beliefs, denial of the information, etc, etc.

My religious views? My religious views never even came up in our conversations.

And my insinuations are every bit as "justified" as your.

Your insinuation was that "I have everything I need to believe in this Biblical God".

You made this charge FIRST, I should also point out.

My insinuation is to simply return the favor and tell you, "You have everything you need to see that the Biblical fables are nothing more that superstitious gobbledygook."

You insinuation toward me implies that I'm "rejecting God".

My insinuation toward you carries with it no such charge.

If you want to believe in the Hebrew God be my quest. But when you start charging me that "I have everything I need to believe it", then yes, I will offer REBUTTAL to that utter nonsense.

As I have said before and will continue to say, you have your reasons to reject it Christianity.

I certainly do. And my reasons are rock solid. IMHO, Christianity is simply far too ignorant, immoral, and quite frankly far too utterly absurd to be the words, desires, and directive of any supposed all-wise supreme being.

If a God exists, it can't be the God of the Hebrews, anymore than it could be the Greek God of Zeus.

We have all recognize the absurdity of the religion of the Greeks. And as far as I'm concerned it's long past time that we should also recognize the absurdity of the religion of the Hebrews.

Like I say, if you want to cling to ancient fables of a God that has you in the doghouse with your creator in dire need of repentance and so totally unable to achieve repentance on your own merit that your creator had to send his only begotten son to earth through a birth of a virgin woman to be nailed to a pole as a sacrificial lamb to pay for your pathetic unworthiness then 'More Power to You!"

I don't care if you want to believe this for yourself.

But the moment you start charging me with "Having everything I need to believe it", then you've crossed a line.

Moreover, if I then reply to you, "You have everything you need to see just how utterly absurd Hebrew mythology truly is", you're really in no position to complain.

You cast the first stone. Not me.

If you'd keep your religion to yourself and quit trying to ram it down the throats of others by proclaiming "They have everything they need to believe", then you wouldn't find yourself in these types of conversations in the first place.

In short, if you're going to practice evangelism, you're basically casting stones at people by accusing them of not believing in your religion.

Evangelism = Religious bigotry.

Evangelism is also nothing more than a total distrust in your own God to be able to do what's right on his own.

If you believe that God's system of justice and judgment is truly righteous and fair, then no undeserving person could ever "fall through the cracks" of this God's system of justice.

Therefore there can be no need for Evangelism.

The very existence of Evangelism is nothing more than a statement that Evangelists believe that truly righteous people might somehow fall through the cracks of God's totally inept system of justice.

They have to believe this, otherwise why would they be needed in God's justice system?

If God's system of justice is sound, and God is truly righteous and just, then there can be no need for any Evangelists.

All who are damned, deserve to be damned, and all who are saved deserve to be saved. And the very idea that this God might have damned someone that an Evangelists might have otherwise "saved" is truly absurd.

All that would amount to is the Evangelist having changed who God might have saved or condemned. But that implies that God's justice system itself must necessarily be flawed.

You can't have a God condemning people that Evangelists might have saved. That wouldn't be justice.

So the whole concept of Evangelism is a direct contradiction to the idea of a God who already has a perfect justice system in place.

If God's system of justice is truly just, then Evangelism cannot have any value at all.

Evangelism can only be meaningful in a system of justice where people are in danger of falling through cracks. But if the justice system is filled with such cracks then it's far from a sound justice system. And that would violate the idea that this God knows what he's doing.

So Evangelical Christianity is truly an oxymoron. Evangelism is nothing more than a display of a gross distrust in the ability of God to do the right thing.

And the only reason I'm telling you any of this is because you have charged that "I have everything I need to believe in this religion".

That's a totally false charge. Everything about Christianity is utterly absurd, IMHO.

I actually have everything I need to know that Christianity can't possibly be true.

It's an impossible religion. It's simply far too self-contradictory. It can't possibly be true for that reason alone.

If you want to believe in it, more power to you.

But don't be telling me that I have everything I need to believe it, that's utter nonsense. Just the opposite is true. I have everything I need to know that it necessarily has to be false. It simply cannot be true.

[charles_hamm]

I really don't even know where to start with this. The "charge" in the Bible applies to all non-believers in Jesus, not just you. Nobody singled you out there.

Who said anything about anyone being "singled out"? I certainly didn't.

I'm a human on planet Earth. A human that recognizes Hebrew mythology as being clearly false. This mythology is making charges against all humans. Being a human, this automatically gives me the right to rebuttal.

So my response is from a humanitarian point of view. This religion causes division between humans. It corrupts some humans into using this religion to belittle and degrade their brothers and sisters on Planet Earth. From my perspective this is a cancer on humanity that serves no good purpose and only causes division and animosity.

You are the one who is taking this mythology seriously enough to actually insinuate and accuse other humans of "Having everything they need to believe".

I reject your charge as being utterly absurd. My position is just the opposite. I believe that you "Have everything you need to be able to see through these ancient superstitious fables"

You're charge to me, supports the fables and therefore supports their charges that I'm deserving of condemnation and supposedly rejecting my creator.

My charge to you is to simply wake-up and realize that this religion is just causing you to accusing other people of rejecting a creator when there is no truth to that charge.

I don't care whether these fables are false, or true. Neither case does it follow that I'm "rejecting my creator". Nothing could be further from the truth.

So if these ancient Hebrews have you believing that I am at odds with my creator or rejecting the creator of reality (if one exists) in any way, then these fables have you believing a lie. Moreover, they are causing you to judge me falsely on this very matter.

If a God exists, I confess to this God that from my perspective the Biblical fables appear to be utterly stupid. Far too stupid to be representative of an all-wise God, and for this reason I reject them entirely.

And that, my friend is the TRUTH.

Now what would you have me do? LIE to this God and pretend that I can believe that the Biblical fables represent something intelligent?

No, I'm not going to do that to appease you or anyone else.

If a God exists I'm going to be TRUTHFUL with that God, and if TRUTH isn't good enough for God then TRUTH has no value at all.

So as far as I'm concerned I'm as righteous as they come. The Christians are constantly after me asking me to live a LIE, and I refuse to do it. '

The biblical fables of the ancient Hebrews is IMHO, ignorant, immoral, and quite frankly outright stupid in many places. I am not about to believe that the creator of reality is ignorant, immoral, and stupid.

Sorry of that offends you in anyway, but it's just my TRUTH.

As for the fact that you somehow think your insinuations are "justified", that just shows that it is your religious views that have arrogance, not mine. BAD, I never stated anyone was stupid. A person can choose to not believe even if there is enough information due to conflicting beliefs, denial of the information, etc, etc.

My religious views? My religious views never even came up in our conversations.

And my insinuations are every bit as "justified" as your.

Your insinuation was that "I have everything I need to believe in this Biblical God".

You made this charge FIRST, I should also point out.

My insinuation is to simply return the favor and tell you, "You have everything you need to see that the Biblical fables are nothing more that superstitious gobbledygook."

You insinuation toward me implies that I'm "rejecting God".

My insinuation toward you carries with it no such charge.

If you want to believe in the Hebrew God be my quest. But when you start charging me that "I have everything I need to believe it", then yes, I will offer REBUTTAL to that utter nonsense.

As I have said before and will continue to say, you have your reasons to reject it Christianity.

I certainly do. And my reasons are rock solid. IMHO, Christianity is simply far too ignorant, immoral, and quite frankly far too utterly absurd to be the words, desires, and directive of any supposed all-wise supreme being.

If a God exists, it can't be the God of the Hebrews, anymore than it could be the Greek God of Zeus.

We have all recognize the absurdity of the religion of the Greeks. And as far as I'm concerned it's long past time that we should also recognize the absurdity of the religion of the Hebrews.

Like I say, if you want to cling to ancient fables of a God that has you in the doghouse with your creator in dire need of repentance and so totally unable to achieve repentance on your own merit that your creator had to send his only begotten son to earth through a birth of a virgin woman to be nailed to a pole as a sacrificial lamb to pay for your pathetic unworthiness then 'More Power to You!"

I don't care if you want to believe this for yourself.

But the moment you start charging me with "Having everything I need to believe it", then you've crossed a line.

Moreover, if I then reply to you, "You have everything you need to see just how utterly absurd Hebrew mythology truly is", you're really in no position to complain.

You cast the first stone. Not me.

If you'd keep your religion to yourself and quit trying to ram it down the throats of others by proclaiming "They have everything they need to believe", then you wouldn't find yourself in these types of conversations in the first place.

In short, if you're going to practice evangelism, you're basically casting stones at people by accusing them of not believing in your religion.

Evangelism = Religious bigotry.

Evangelism is also nothing more than a total distrust in your own God to be able to do what's right on his own.

If you believe that God's system of justice and judgment is truly righteous and fair, then no undeserving person could ever "fall through the cracks" of this God's system of justice.

Therefore there can be no need for Evangelism.

The very existence of Evangelism is nothing more than a statement that Evangelists believe that truly righteous people might somehow fall through the cracks of God's totally inept system of justice.

They have to believe this, otherwise why would they be needed in God's justice system?

If God's system of justice is sound, and God is truly righteous and just, then there can be no need for any Evangelists.

All who are damned, deserve to be damned, and all who are saved deserve to be saved. And the very idea that this God might have damned someone that an Evangelists might have otherwise "saved" is truly absurd.

All that would amount to is the Evangelist having changed who God might have saved or condemned. But that implies that God's justice system itself must necessarily be flawed.

You can't have a God condemning people that Evangelists might have saved. That wouldn't be justice.

So the whole concept of Evangelism is a direct contradiction to the idea of a God who already has a perfect justice system in place.

If God's system of justice is truly just, then Evangelism cannot have any value at all.

Evangelism can only be meaningful in a system of justice where people are in danger of falling through cracks. But if the justice system is filled with such cracks then it's far from a sound justice system. And that would violate the idea that this God knows what he's doing.

So Evangelical Christianity is truly an oxymoron. Evangelism is nothing more than a display of a gross distrust in the ability of God to do the right thing.

And the only reason I'm telling you any of this is because you have charged that "I have everything I need to believe in this religion".

That's a totally false charge. Everything about Christianity is utterly absurd, IMHO.

I actually have everything I need to know that Christianity can't possibly be true.

It's an impossible religion. It's simply far too self-contradictory. It can't possibly be true for that reason alone.

If you want to believe in it, more power to you.

But don't be telling me that I have everything I need to believe it, that's utter nonsense. Just the opposite is true. I have everything I need to know that it necessarily has to be false. It simply cannot be true.

Since it looks like we can take the kiddie gloves off now, allow me to start by saying you certainly DO NOT speak for humanity as you imply above. You seem to think, in my opinion , that you are on some great mission to tell humanity "the truth" about Christianity when in reality all you continue to do in your post is spew hatred toward it. Actually, no it was not I who cast the first stone at all. Re-read all the post and you will see that I replied to a comment where a poster stated that they had not been given enough information to believe in God. I believe that is your "first stone". Even then I only pointed out a second option. If that second option does not apply to you then so be it. In my opinion, if you are honest you could admit that the second option I presented ( my analogy) is just as viable an option for the reason some non-believers choose not to believe as is the idea that "God failed to provide any reason".

As far as we should "recognize the absurdity of the religion of the Hebrews", that is not going to happen. The only "absurdity" I see, is spewing out hatred and then accusing the very object of that hatred as being full of hate itself, in my opinion. You throw out baseless accusations against my God of being "ignorant, immoral and stupid" but then step back and assume the role of a victim, in my opinion. That Divine Insight is an insinuation that anyone who would follow the Christian God is ignorant, immoral and stupid.

If you want to continue to say hateful things against Christianity under the guise of showing how "clearly false" it is while acting like a victim of the results of non-belief in the Christian God as put forth in the Bible then it is my opinion that the post where you do this should simply remain unaddressed and will remain unaddressed by me since I will not resort to calling non-believers names. You, in my opinion, call my God and my religion names without directly calling the followers anything and somehow think that avoids making any insuations against the believers of my religion. You, in my opinion, are mistaken here. Please notice I only refer to my religion here. That would be Christianity. If others wish to discuss their specific religion with you then they should do that, because I am not qualified to discuss other religions.

As for being in these types of conversations, well you could be right. Of course if you didn't say hateful and baseless statements against my religion and then try to present them as fact i wouldn't need to do it either. Just my opinion. In my opinion, you make these statements as if you have some authoritative position on the subject and I have yet to see where you would have gotten that position from.

You are right about one thing. You have everything you need to believe Christianity is false. Your statements above demonstrate that very well. You may even "know" that Christianity is not true for you. It's when you presume to say it's false in general that I have issue.

[SailingCyclops]

So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God?

According to the Catholics there is a Limbo and a Purgatory in addition to Heaven and Hell. So, there are already 4 places for the dead You want to add a 5th?

[charles_hamm]

So because God gave you all need to believe and you refused He’s at fault.

No,what he gave was unconvincing, one would think he could do better job considering who he claims to be.
The statements made in the bible are false, lies. like this one its not even true even if a true believer asks.
John chapter 14:12:
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
This statement comes from the one who claims to be god so therefore when he says 'Whatever you ask in my name i will do it' that is the will of god.
I guarantee you this there will be a lot of things he won't do.
And if your going bring up some other scripture that says what you are asking for something that is not the will of god then you have demonstrated this scripture is a lie, and that the word of god is in contradiction.
also if your going say that this scripture was meant for a specific group like eleven he was talking to you are wrong because it says
'he who believes in me will also do the works that I do'

charles_hamm
If you took, say calculus and you refused to read the book, take notes in class, do any work given out or ask the professor any questions is it the professors fault for your lack of understanding?

You bare false witness against me, my knowledge of the bible and use of scripture that i have used in this thread demonstrate
that i have 'read the book, take notes in class, do any work given out or ask the professor any questions is it the professors'as you put it
The problem is you don't agree with me and you think your infalliable in your knowlage.

charles_hamm
You've made a positive assertion here, therefore the burden of proof falls on you, not me.

I did not make the positive assertion here you did when you said your belief exist as something real, something that mankind would actually have to listen to.
So present your evidence for this alleged thing you say we have to listen to.

charles_hamm I believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God.

How did you come to this conclusion?

charles_hamm

cubey

charles_hamm
BTW we have eradicated some diseases. So once again, nice try..

With secular science, nice try

You got me except for the fact that you can’t even remotely show that ALL the scientist were atheist, nor can you show that the funding for the research that led to these cures did not come from Christians.

It doesn't matter who does the work it was done with capitalistic materialism and secular science and not prayer not the bible or your God.
Stop being a thief and give credit were credit is due.

charles_hamm
Actually no you are incorrect here. Revelation 14 is only seen as a preview of Babylon falling. If you will read Revelation 19 you’ll see the reality of Hell. Living torment in the presence of God is not for all eternity. Separation from God in a lake of fire is. My advice is to read the entire book before quoting it.

I doubt you have, maybe you should use the bible, instead of interpret it to make it say what you want it to say.

I wasn't talking about Revelation 14
I was talking about Revelation 20
The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
as stated in Psalm 139
those thrown into the lake fire well be in a living torment enforced by God and in presence of God for all of eternity.
Psalm 139
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

charles_hamm
John 10:18 explained
No one can take my life from me- No one can force me to die.

No man can make that claim so therefore he is not a man.

charles_hamm
I lay down my life voluntarily- I sacrifice my life.

The act of taking one's life for the benefit of others 'altruistic suicide' guilty as charged.

charles_hamm
I have the right to lay it down when I want- I have the right to sacrifice my life when I want to.

Now he's just stating he has the right to commit altruistic suicide its still suicide.

charles_hamm
The power to take it again- the power to take my life that is sacrificed voluntarily back.

A power no man has, therefore he is not a man, a god-man maybe, but definitely not a man.
When all men can make these claim then can God can judge us by the standard he uses to judge Christ by.

charles_hamm
Now that the explanation is done I’ll address your comments. You are right God is not dead nor did God the Son die on the cross. Jesus the human died on the cross.

Foolish nonsense now you try to explain the trinity by creating a second Jesus.
Its the holy trinity not the holy quadnity. :facepalm:
Jesus is was ether dead or alive not both.
So did he pay and not pay for your debt to god this explanation makes a mockery of his sacrifice.

charles_hamm
I believe that you probably got confused because I did not include nature after the divinity and for that I apologize. I’ll start with the misconception that Jesus is a creation of God. Jesus is not a creation of God.
He is one part of a triune God. He is to be exact, God the Son. If you read Revelation 1:8 Jesus calls himself the Alpha and Omega. Jesus became a man on Earth. He did not, however, give up His place as God the Son.

No i have had to tell a number of Christians that the bible says Jesus is God and therefore cannot be a creation of God.
You know the ones i'm talkin about, those Christians that aren't true Christians

charles_hamm
His humanity is shown in Luke 2:7,Galatians 4:4, Matthew 4:2, and John 4:6 and 19:28.

You may be able to show this, but it doesn't prove he was a man.
Because he claims to have power that no man has He can be in no way less than the sum total of what he is and this statement is what makes him not a man.

charles_hamm
There are more verses if you need to see them that show He was a man. Your statement about being a God walking around in a bag of flesh is way off target. If He were only God then He could not die or He would not be eternal.

So your are saying god is forced to be eternal that he has the neither the power or freewill to commit suicide?

charles_hamm
The lambs were soulless creatures so they were never a pure, perfect and holy sacrifice

Leviticus 22:
21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

charles_hamm
A child who dies in its crib is only sinless because it’s covered by the blood of Jesus’ death from birth due to the lack of a choice

A child who dies in its crib is sinless because it has kept the law and it doesn't matter that the child has made no choice.
The blood of Jesus if for those who violate the law, not for those who keep it.

charles_hamm
It never says He promised any of the people who heard the disciples preach that if they went and preached to someone else the same signs would be shown.

Open your eyes its right here.
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe:
what you are trying to make it say is this;
15 He said to the disciples, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany you my disciples who believe: In my name you 'disciples' will drive out demons; you 'disciples' will speak in new tongues; 18 you 'disciples' will pick up snakes with your hands; and when you 'disciples' drink deadly poison, it will not hurt you 'disciples' at all; you 'disciples' will place your hands on sick people, and they will get well.
And it just doesn't say that.
If i say to you charles_hamm 'And these signs will accompany those who believe' i'm i talking to you, about you, or am i talking to you about someone else?

charles_hamm
All right so if you just want an either do a or b then the proper response is a, be a Christian and help the Jew in Nazi Germany escape and in the process break German law. Under 1 Peter 2:11-23 it tells you to live Godly in a pagan society. Verse 2:12 says “Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day He visits us.� If you had continued on 18-21 tells you it is commendable to bear the pain of unjust suffering in the eyes of God. Even verse 16, which you quoted, tells you not to use your freedom to cover-up for evil. Option b actually is mislabeled as being the good Christian.

You are not living Godly in Germany if you break German law, to help the Jews.
Because Romans 13 says you are to obey the government, all governments.
But you are saying that 1 Peter 2:11-23 says you can break the law.
You can't have it both ways.
Just another demonstration that the bible is contradictory.

Before I address any of your points, I would like to clear something up. I was not implying "you" as in you Cubey. I was using "you" in a general sense to men anyone. I should have used "a person" instead to avoid any confusion. I will attempt to avoid this kind of confusion in the future. I will address your points in my next response to this; I just wanted to make sure you knew I was not refereing to you personally in my statement there.

I don't take it personally and i still look forward to your response.
You do realize that what you did was equate something real with your imagined belief.
Now one could have a real exchange of dialog with a real professor, but its really not possible to have a real exchange of dialog in any way with someone else's imagined belief.
So now do you see how your analogy fails from my point of View.

If that's your point of contention with my analogy then I see where my analogy would not work for you. My analogy does not fail for this thread, however since to answer the OP one who by definition need God to exist. I equated something real ( a professor) with something real (my God). A person still had three other options to learn about God.

I would try to come up with another analogy, but those seem to start little fights

[Divine Insight]

As far as we should "recognize the absurdity of the religion of the Hebrews", that is not going to happen.

But it is happening world-wide exponentially. Studies have shown that 9 out of 10 religious high school graduates who go on to college, graduate college as atheists. In fact, religious fundamentalist are up in arms about this blaming colleges for turning "children" into atheists.

But the truth is that colleges don't teach atheism. What is true is simply that the more educated people become the less likely they are to continue to support ancient groundless superstitions.

The only "absurdity" I see, is spewing out hatred and then accusing the very object of that hatred as being full of hate itself, in my opinion.

I'm not spewing any hatred. On the contrary, I just point out how ignorant the ancient Hebrew fables are. There's nothing hateful about that. You may hate it simply because you're trying to sell the religion to others. But that's irrelevant.

There is nothing anymore hateful about exposing the absurdities of the ancient Hebrew fables than there was about exposing the absurdities of the Greek fables.

I doubt that you give Zeus and company any merit.

You throw out baseless accusations against my God of being "ignorant, immoral and stupid" but then step back and assume the role of a victim

It's not "Your God", you don't own any God. The sooner you get rid of that idea the better off you'll be.

You didn't create this religion. The ancient Hebrews did. And as a human being being accused by this religion, it's my view and that the religion is indeed highly ignorant, immoral, and yes, even stupid.

That's my assessment of the Hebrew mythology.

You're the one who's playing the role of "victim" here.

You're spewing insulting accusations toward other people implying that they are "rejecting their creator". IMHO, that's an extremely hateful thing to do.

All I'm telling you is WHY I don't buy into the ancient Hebrew myths.

If you want to believe in those myths, please be my guest.

But if you try to sell them to me or anyone else in a public venue, I won't hesitate to tell you why I think they are indeed highly ignorant, immoral, and yes, even stupid.

I'm not going to stand by silently whilst you accusing people having "Having everything they need to believe in your God" when that's utter nonsense.

There are far more reasons to reject these ancient fables than there are for accepting them. Especially in terms of what they literally have to say.

[charles_hamm]

As far as we should "recognize the absurdity of the religion of the Hebrews", that is not going to happen.

But it is happening world-wide exponentially. Studies have shown that 9 out of 10 religious high school graduates who go on to college, graduate college as atheists.

Please cite your sources for these studies.

[Divine Insight]

As far as we should "recognize the absurdity of the religion of the Hebrews", that is not going to happen.

But it is happening world-wide exponentially. Studies have shown that 9 out of 10 religious high school graduates who go on to college, graduate college as atheists.

Please cite your sources for these studies.

Sorry, I didn't save the link.

This had actually been pointed out to me by religious fundamentalists who were complaining about colleges "teaching atheism". They did provide a link to this study to prove their case that 9 out of 10 college students that begin college with strong religious faith end up graduating as atheists. The study looked legit to me.

I wouldn't question it anyway because it makes sense to me.

But I didn't save the link to the study so I can't verify it.

But I confess that I'm thrilled to know that it may actually be true.

I make no secret about the fact that I personally believe that the sooner humanity puts the Abrahamic religions on the shelf marked "Mythology" alongside Greek mythology the better off we will all be. And this is true of all the Abrahamic religions, from the original Judaism, to Islam, to Catholicism, to all the protesting Protestantisms.

I'm all for getting rid of these "jealous-God" religions, especially when they contain so many immoral teachings, such as women being socially and politically inferior to men.

Back in the 60's when women were burning their bras to protest against male-chauvinism I couldn't believe it. Why were they burning their bras? They should have been burning their Bibles!

[charles_hamm]

[Replying to post 38 by Divine Insight]

Thank you for your honesty. I have not seen any studies like this so I really can't comment on one.

[Soccerfreak]

[Replying to post 1 by lostguest]

Technically, they do send themselves to hell. The Bible doesn't say anything about being good to get into heaven. It says that all you need to do is believe that Christ is your savior and redeemer. It's as simple as that. You either go to heaven or hell, no place in between.