aglassdarkly wrote:
Are you arguing that my claim is false because I don't have statistics to back it up?
You claimed that millions of people had led immoral lives and had willfully rejected God prior to converting to Christianity.
I'm saying that if you don't have statistics to back up that claim then, yes, it should be seen as nothing more than mere wishful thinking on your part.
Evidently you would like for this to be true because you feel that this would somehow support your religious faith. Personally I think it supports your faith even if it were true. But I think you'd have a very hard time showing that millions of Christians were both immoral and willfully rejecting God prior to being converted to Christianity.
So without statistics to back up your claims then your claims are indeed reduced to nothing more than a person opinion. In fact, there are forum rules that when you make a claim you need to either back it up with evidence, or confess that it is indeed nothing more than your own hopeful opinion.
aglassdarkly wrote:
How do you know their hearts are not inclined to sin? Have you looked that deeply into their consciousness/soul/psyche? Do you know these people so well that you can confidently say that they are fully unaware of God, even at a subconscious or spiritual level?
Or is this just you restating your presupposition?
Will this whole thing just consistently be leading us back to your assumption that people aren't sinful and haven't willfully rejected God?
Unlike you, I allow people to speak for themselves.
If they tell me that they aren't immoral people and they have never willfully rejected God, then I accept their word on this. I also happen to know that this is true for me, therefore I have no problem accepting that it can also be true for some others.
I don't reject your claim that you were an immoral person who was willfully rejecting God. I've met other people who make that claim as well. So I don't doubt that such people do indeed exist. But I have no reason to believe that everyone is like you.
aglassdarkly wrote:
We all lie. The lies that hurt the most are the lies we tell ourselves. You can lie to yourself so much that you begin to actually believe the lie. The Bible says that God can eventually give people over to their sinfulness, and at that point I don't think they'd be willfully lying if they said they have no awareness of God.
No, this isn't true. We don't all lie. It may be true that we all have lied at some point in our lives, such as when we were immature. However, many of us have matured to a level where we realize that there simply is no need to lie. And so we stop lying at that point. No need for any supernatural intervention.
We don't continue to lie after that. Do you?
Moreover, when it comes to Christianity I could never claim to believe that that Bible is true because that most certainly would indeed be a lie.
It has been my conclusion that the Bible is utterly absurd and outright ignorant in places. It is filled with blatant contradictions and self-inconsistencies. Even the Gospels have Jesus renouncing the immoral commandment that the God of the Old Testament had given.
The truth is that I am completely convinced that Jesus could not have been the son of the fictitious God of Abraham, and that the fables of the fictitious God of Abraham are indeed as false as the Greek fables of Zeus.
This is my truth. And therefore if there exists a God I must tell this God the truth that I do indeed reject the Hebrew fables of God based on their utter absurdity and blatant contradictions. Not to mention, that IMHO, they God they describe would necessarily be extremely inept and immoral himself.
That is true, my friend.
Therefore for me to even pretend to become a Christan would necessity be a lie.
Yet unfortunately the Christians are constantly after me to become a liar.
Go figure.
aglassdarkly wrote:
If someone lies, should no one call them a liar?
If you call someone a liar you better have proof otherwise it's slander.
I don't call you a liar for claiming to have been an immoral person who was willfully rejecting God prior to converting to Christianity. I accept that this is true.
In fact, since you claim to still be a sinner I see no reason to believe that anything has even changed much.
However, if someone tells you that they are neither an immoral person, nor are they willfully rejecting any God, then you have no right to call them a liar, unless you can prove that they are indeed lying, which clearly you cannot.
Thus your accusations against them amount to nothing more than slander brought about by your religious bigotry.
aglassdarkly wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
For you to tell them that they have a natural awareness of God when they say they don't is clearly slander on your part.
Only if it's not true.
You're assuming that you are right, without offering an actual argument. This is a debate forum. You should have an argument.
I know I'm right in my case. Therefore I am living proof that I am right.
I don't question your claim to have been an immoral person who was willfully rejecting God. Why do you question my claim that I'm a moral person who has never rejected God in my entire life.
I'm not even an atheist. I've been a deeply spiritual person from my earliest childhood memories. I've always felt the presence of God and there has never been a time when I have not.
This doesn't make Greek mythology of Zeus true, nor does it mean that that the mythology of the God of Judaism, Islam, Catholicism, or any of the myriad of protestation Protestantisms true.
You are judging people based solely on religion. IMHO, you have no clue about God at all. You are apparently obsessed with religion, and with judging other people via religious bigotry, and therefore I'm not surprised when you say that you continue to sin.
As I've already pointed out Jesus himself taught people not to sin and to even be perfect as their Father in heaven is perfect. If you truly believe in Jesus then why do you not follow his advice? Why do you continue to sin?
As far as I can see, if you claim to be following Jesus as your LORD and savior, then you should indeed be perfectly sinless and never sin again for the rest of your life. You have no excuse to sin with Jesus as your LORD and savior.
In fact, if you are still sinning with Jesus as your LORD and savior that doesn't say much for the effectiveness of your religion.
