Willful Rejection of God?

[Divine Insight]

There are millions of Christians that will testify that they were willfully rejecting God, living immoral lives before they came to believe in and trust God.

The above comment made in another thread inspired me to ask the following questions:

1. Is it true that millions of Christians were immoral people who were willfully rejecting God before they became Christians?

2. If so, what would cause these immoral people to have a change of heart?

3. Also, if they didn't even believe in a God before they became a Christian then how can it be alleged that they had been "willfully rejecting a God" that they didn't even believe in prior to becoming a believer?

4. Are their any Christians who were never immoral people, or who had never willfully and knowingly rejected God?

5. Finally, what about highly moral people who already believe in God through a different spiritual philosophy? Would they need to become immoral people before they could become a Christian? Clearly they are not rejecting God since they already believe in God.

Personal note: The more people evangelize (or even debate) Christianity with me, the more apparent it becomes that the only way I could become a Christian is to first become a highly immoral person who knowingly and willfully rejects God. But why would I want to do that in the first place? To become a Christian would require that I first become an immoral God-rejecting person. And that makes no sense.

[Divine Insight]

Are you arguing that my claim is false because I don't have statistics to back it up?

You claimed that millions of people had led immoral lives and had willfully rejected God prior to converting to Christianity.

I'm saying that if you don't have statistics to back up that claim then, yes, it should be seen as nothing more than mere wishful thinking on your part.

So you're saying it's false because I haven't provided statistics to back it up? Or it's false because there aren't statistics to back it up?

I'm not saying that it's false. I'm simply saying that since you offered it as an unsubstantiated opinion that's how I'll view it.

If you're going to debate you need to learn that you can't just make random claims without providing some sort of evidence for them.

I personally don't believe that it's true. I know a lot of Christians who would never claim that there was a time when they were either an immoral person, or that they had willfully rejected God.

So I see no reason to accept your unsupported opinion.

Moreover, I see far more counter examples. Many former Christians who have either become atheists or have moved do to spiritual philosophies of higher morality have indeed given testimony that they have higher moral values now than they had when they were a Christian.

I certainly feel this way, at least in terms of philosophical moral values. The very idea of condoning having an innocent demigod beaten and nailed to a pole to pay for my sins is itself an extremely immoral thing to condone. So Christianity is basically asking me to become a highly immoral person just to support it.

So I renounce the religion as being highly immoral on many issues.

[aglassdarkly]

I'm saying that if you don't have statistics to back up that claim then, yes, it should be seen as nothing more than mere wishful thinking on your part.

So you're saying it's false because I haven't provided statistics to back it up? Or it's false because there aren't statistics to back it up?

I'm not saying that it's false. I'm simply saying that since you offered it as an unsubstantiated opinion that's how I'll view it.

Wishful thinking, but not necessarily false? I can live with that.

So you're not even arguing that it's false? Or do you have an argument?

[Divine Insight]

So you're not even arguing that it's false? Or do you have an argument?

I posted these apologetic questions in this thread to see if there are any other Christians out there who even agree with your personal views.

I have no need to argue with you about it as you have already confessed that you have no clue whether it's true or not.

None the less you were the person who made this outrageous claim.

I know that it's not true in many cases so I have ample counter examples. I don't claim to have kept track of them in any statically formal sense. However, it seems to me that you'd be hard-pressed to get very many Christians proclaiming that they had willfully rejected God before they became a Christian.

What I find even more absurd about your personal claims is that apparently you continue to do immoral things (i.e. sin) even after you have supposedly become a Christian. So I don't understand how your religious conversion has done much of anything for you.

But to each there own.

I just see no reason to give much of anything you have to say about Christianity any merit. Although, I must say that I have heard many Christians on the Internet proclaim that they are continual sinners even thought they have supposedly accepted Jesus as their LORD and savior.

Personally I don't see how that's even possible, but perhaps that's part of the hypocrisy that Christianity has become.

If I were a Christian, I think I would try to do as Jesus says. But I guess for many "Christians" that's not an important concept.

I think Mahatma Gandhi sums it up beautifully, "Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I agree completely.

[aglassdarkly]

So you're not even arguing that it's false? Or do you have an argument?

I posted these apologetic questions in this thread to see if there are any other Christians out there who even agree with your personal views.

So you weren't looking for statistics anyway?

I have no need to argue with you about it as you have already confessed that you have no clue whether it's true or not.

If you want to engage in a discussion that has any fruitfulness, you'll need to be more accurate. I didn't confess that my statement isn't true. I said I would only speak for myself, and allow others to speak for themselves as well.

Keep up the strawman tactics and watch how quickly this thread dies.

[Divine Insight]

I said I would only speak for myself, and allow others to speak for themselves as well.

You already failed miserably at that when you proclaimed that millions of people were immoral and willfully rejecting God before they converted to Christianity.

That's clearly speaking for other people.

If you would like to speak for yourself, then can you explain why you continue to sin when Jesus taught that we are not to sin?

When Jesus was at the well where a mob was about to stone a woman to death for adultery he stopped the mob, and then said to the woman, "Go and sin no more".

Do you think Jesus would tell the woman to sin no more if he thought she wasn't capable of refraining from sin?

Jesus also taught, "Be ye therefore perfect like your Father in heaven is perfect".

Again, do you think Jesus instructs people to do things that are beyond their ability to do?

Why bother telling people to behave in a way that they are incapable of behaving?

Do you believe in Jesus or don't you?

And if you do, then what is your excuse for not being perfectly free of sin as Jesus has commanded?

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

1. Is it true that millions of Christians were immoral people who were willfully rejecting God before they became Christians?

It's my sincere belief there's a good million of 'em that were immoral afterwards.

2. If so, what would cause these immoral people to have a change of heart?

Thinking there's a god up there who gives a hoot.

3. Also, if they didn't even believe in a God before they became a Christian then how can it be alleged that they had been "willfully rejecting a God" that they didn't even believe in prior to becoming a believer?

Beats the heck out of me.

4. Are their any Christians who were never immoral people, or who had never willfully and knowingly rejected God?

Naw, folks is immoral, but that's just them being folks. On the willfully and knowingly rejecting, I find such an accusation a slander against those who reject the god claims coming from folks incapable of showing they speak truth.

5. Finally, what about highly moral people who already believe in God through a different spiritual philosophy?

Good on 'em.

As for me, I prefer my morals remain in the gutter, where I get the most fun out of 'em.

Would they need to become immoral people before they could become a Christian?

I've yet to find solid data that show religious belief leads to a greater moral character.

Clearly they are not rejecting God since they already believe in God.

Even if I believed the Christian God exists, I'd still not worship out of the fact he doesn't seem to like the libians, and I'm here to tell ya, watching two hot chicks kiss is about the prettiest thing I know.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Divine Insight in post #1]
A person who thinks that gods do exist, but willfully doesnt care for them is plausible

What has that to do with morality