Introduction:
Hello, so this was something that I've been wanting to do for a very long time now with all religious books and I finally found the motivation to go ahead with it. I'd like for us to present our own interpretations of the entire Bible. I have decided to do so by presenting each and every chapter from all the books for discussion, notes, and interpretations to hopefully increase our own understanding of it while acknowledging the differences of others Biblical perception. So all are welcome to join in and give their input, for if anyone holds back it actually hinders the purpose of this thread.
This will be a series of threads and this will take a very long time to complete even though the Bible is a book that one could probably always go back to and learn something that may of been missed when reading it before. Do to my life being a bit unpredictable I can't estimate a time frame of when we will get from Genesis to Revelation or promise that there won't be any long pauses in progress. It's safe to assume that this can take years. To keep this organized and convenient for all readers regardless of when they join in on this project of mines I'd like to ask a few things:
1.Feel free to go on to the next chapter for discussion at any time but please make sure to use the subject heading or first few sentences to give the main idea of your post. Only so I can later edit a post for cross references i.e. someone says something about chaper 28 that leads to a better understanding of chapter one. Or even references between different books of the Bible.
2.If someone has an interpretation that contradicts your own you may want to correct them with yours. If an agreement can't be made after a short discussion please take the debate to a new thread so that this one doesn't get derailed. Even if we all didn't debate anything the threads are going to be really long. Hopefully if the time limit to edit posts is removed I can update a list of references to all readers.
3.Some parts of these threads can seem stupid, boring, where as we will find ourselves going over very simple chapters that seem to not need any review. Or some of us may feel that our thoughts on something isn't important or relevent enough. Please resist such an urge and present your thoughts. I'd prefer that we didn't overlook anything as it might support a powerful reference later.
4.Please try to be descriptive if you use any references from parts of the Bible we haven't got to yet so I can update the list of references easier.
5.Please try to not to take what others believe personally. There seems to be no end to what the Bible can says to any reader.
Table of Contents:
Chapter 1..................................page 1
Chapter 2..................................page 1
Chapter 3..................................page 2
Chapter 4..................................page 2
Debates for this thread:
On the nakedness and the Devil being a snake as literal or not, as well as looking to see if there's a way to commonly interpret scripture as literal or figurative.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 990#562990
References:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=23345
A thorough study of the entire Bible-Thread 1.
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A thorough study of the entire Bible-Thread 1.
Post #1
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Genesis Chapter 1
Post #2Genesis 1
New International Version (NIV)
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,� and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,� and the darkness he called “night.� And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.� 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.� And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.� And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,� and the gathered waters he called “seas.� And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.� And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.� And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.� 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.� 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.� And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.�
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.�
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.� And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
(From Biblegateway.com. Please feel free to present the same chapter from a different version at any time. Feel free to talk about chapters that have been presented previously regardless of whichever chapters we progress to, the Table of Contents will reflect all references.)
My personal response to this chapter:
Questions:
1.What does a formless earth look like?
2.Any importance in the order of darkness and then light? Perhaps a representation of good and evil? Perhaps Satan's rebellion had already started?
3.There was water above the sky, a part of Heaven?
4.Is it wrong to create life to be the food of a different life form i.e. green plants? Seeing as plants would of been able to die to another life form does this mean that death had entered the world before Adam and Eve had sinned?
Notes:
1.The water must of been very high above the earth if a sky was needed to divide it from the water below it. So it appears there is a shapeless earth very deep in the middle of a giant body of water.
Comments:
This chapter explains the start of how we organized time to make calendars. The lights(moon and stars)are not an effective way for us to see through the dark. I wonder why these lights weren't made a bit brighter so we wouldn't need street lights.
This chapter explains the creation of creatures in the water and the sky.
This is the part that sticks out to me the most though ''let us make humans in OUR own image''. I'd like to know the identities of all the beings that were involved in the creation of man. People were made by this god and supposed to rule over every living creature of the earth. It's a wonder if sin never happened if man would never have to fear animals in the wild. If all animals would of been completely submissive.
People were originally under the plan of eating fruit and vegetables where as animals were to eat plants. It's a wonder if sticking to this way of eating rather than our alternative ways would increase the average lifespan.
''The breath of life'' is an interesting term for breathing.
New International Version (NIV)
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,� and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,� and the darkness he called “night.� And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.� 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.� And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.� And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,� and the gathered waters he called “seas.� And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.� And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.� And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.� 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.� 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.� And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.�
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.�
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.� And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
(From Biblegateway.com. Please feel free to present the same chapter from a different version at any time. Feel free to talk about chapters that have been presented previously regardless of whichever chapters we progress to, the Table of Contents will reflect all references.)
My personal response to this chapter:
Questions:
1.What does a formless earth look like?
2.Any importance in the order of darkness and then light? Perhaps a representation of good and evil? Perhaps Satan's rebellion had already started?
3.There was water above the sky, a part of Heaven?
4.Is it wrong to create life to be the food of a different life form i.e. green plants? Seeing as plants would of been able to die to another life form does this mean that death had entered the world before Adam and Eve had sinned?
Notes:
1.The water must of been very high above the earth if a sky was needed to divide it from the water below it. So it appears there is a shapeless earth very deep in the middle of a giant body of water.
Comments:
This chapter explains the start of how we organized time to make calendars. The lights(moon and stars)are not an effective way for us to see through the dark. I wonder why these lights weren't made a bit brighter so we wouldn't need street lights.
This chapter explains the creation of creatures in the water and the sky.
This is the part that sticks out to me the most though ''let us make humans in OUR own image''. I'd like to know the identities of all the beings that were involved in the creation of man. People were made by this god and supposed to rule over every living creature of the earth. It's a wonder if sin never happened if man would never have to fear animals in the wild. If all animals would of been completely submissive.
People were originally under the plan of eating fruit and vegetables where as animals were to eat plants. It's a wonder if sticking to this way of eating rather than our alternative ways would increase the average lifespan.
''The breath of life'' is an interesting term for breathing.
Last edited by DiscipleOfTruth on Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DiscipleOfTruth
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Genesis Chapter 2
Post #3Genesis 2
New International Version (NIV)
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin[d] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.[e] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.�
18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.�
19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.�
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Footnotes:
Genesis 2:5 Or land; also in verse 6
Genesis 2:6 Or mist
Genesis 2:7 The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah); it is also the name Adam (see verse 20).
Genesis 2:12 Or good; pearls
Genesis 2:13 Possibly southeast Mesopotamia
Genesis 2:20 Or the man
Genesis 2:21 Or took part of the man’s side
Genesis 2:22 Or part
(From Biblegateway.com. Please feel free to present the same chapter from a different version at any time. Feel free to talk about chapters that have been presented previously regardless of whichever chapters we progress to, the Table of Contents will reflect all references.)
New International Version (NIV)
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin[d] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.[e] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.�
18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.�
19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.
But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.�
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Footnotes:
Genesis 2:5 Or land; also in verse 6
Genesis 2:6 Or mist
Genesis 2:7 The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah); it is also the name Adam (see verse 20).
Genesis 2:12 Or good; pearls
Genesis 2:13 Possibly southeast Mesopotamia
Genesis 2:20 Or the man
Genesis 2:21 Or took part of the man’s side
Genesis 2:22 Or part
(From Biblegateway.com. Please feel free to present the same chapter from a different version at any time. Feel free to talk about chapters that have been presented previously regardless of whichever chapters we progress to, the Table of Contents will reflect all references.)
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DiscipleOfTruth
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My response to chapter 2.
Post #4Whoa, wait a minute, there are just too many people posting in this thread. I might have to skip a few pages and come back to this 
My personal response to chapter 2:
This chapter explains why some people celebrate the Sabbath. Some of my relatives do. The use it as a day of rest, no work, no washing dishes, no games or television(unless about something Biblical). My favorite part was not having to wash dishes
When looking at the description of where the Garden of Eden was I forget where that was supposed to be at. Have go back and check it. But I believe that over time the features of the land could of buried this interesting garden. It sounds like the best vacation anyone could of ever had.
One of the things I wonder and believe is that Adam and Eve were probably the most attractive people to ever be on this planet. Seeing as they were born before sin was committed. One of my family members made an interesting point to me though. Even though they might of been the most attractive is that is sin had never entered the world is that people wouldn't of thought about this attractiveness in a way that people would today. Not in a lustful manner. What causes me to think this is about the way the man and woman were both naked and not ashamed. So then I imagined if they didn't sin then all would of been naked all of the time. Clothes would of never existed. But the difference is that in such a world as that there wouldn't be a need for clothes where as there wouldn't be any lust. Nor would there be any reason to feel that such nakedness was wrong.
What I do wonder though is why would there been a need to feel shame about nakedness? What is the shame in it when you are the only two people on earth, married at that. Perhaps an unexplainable instinct that was given to them as a reaction?
The teaching of the man and woman when married becoming one flesh was very interesting to me. I accept the trinity version of the God head and find it easier to understand when looked at like this:
Two separate people but united spiritually as if they are one flesh. So I interpret the trinity of the christian god as three separate persons but spiritually as one god.
I believe it should be easy to understand when thought of in that way.
Well, I suppose I'll continue to give my interpretation of these chapters, but anyone who's interested in joining in at anytime please do. This isn't purposed as a debate thread, feel free to comment on any chapters I've already past as well.
My personal response to chapter 2:
This chapter explains why some people celebrate the Sabbath. Some of my relatives do. The use it as a day of rest, no work, no washing dishes, no games or television(unless about something Biblical). My favorite part was not having to wash dishes
When looking at the description of where the Garden of Eden was I forget where that was supposed to be at. Have go back and check it. But I believe that over time the features of the land could of buried this interesting garden. It sounds like the best vacation anyone could of ever had.
One of the things I wonder and believe is that Adam and Eve were probably the most attractive people to ever be on this planet. Seeing as they were born before sin was committed. One of my family members made an interesting point to me though. Even though they might of been the most attractive is that is sin had never entered the world is that people wouldn't of thought about this attractiveness in a way that people would today. Not in a lustful manner. What causes me to think this is about the way the man and woman were both naked and not ashamed. So then I imagined if they didn't sin then all would of been naked all of the time. Clothes would of never existed. But the difference is that in such a world as that there wouldn't be a need for clothes where as there wouldn't be any lust. Nor would there be any reason to feel that such nakedness was wrong.
What I do wonder though is why would there been a need to feel shame about nakedness? What is the shame in it when you are the only two people on earth, married at that. Perhaps an unexplainable instinct that was given to them as a reaction?
The teaching of the man and woman when married becoming one flesh was very interesting to me. I accept the trinity version of the God head and find it easier to understand when looked at like this:
Two separate people but united spiritually as if they are one flesh. So I interpret the trinity of the christian god as three separate persons but spiritually as one god.
I believe it should be easy to understand when thought of in that way.
Well, I suppose I'll continue to give my interpretation of these chapters, but anyone who's interested in joining in at anytime please do. This isn't purposed as a debate thread, feel free to comment on any chapters I've already past as well.
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ttruscott
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Re: My response to chapter 2.
Post #5Well I got some things a bit off beat for consideration due to my pre-conception existence pov:DiscipleOfTruth wrote: ...
Well, I suppose I'll continue to give my interpretation of these chapters, but anyone who's interested in joining in at anytime please do. This isn't purposed as a debate thread, feel free to comment on any chapters I've already past as well.
The Garden was NOT perfect...
Gen. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
1.
This verse:
2 Peter 2:4 - For if GOD spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (literally: Tartarus) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement.
is in this “everything,� since it is common knowledge that Satan and the angles fell before the garden as proven by the snake arriving in a fallen state before Adam and Eve sinned in the garden.
So sometimes everything does not mean everything. Perhaps it does not include some things outside of the area being talked about OR perhaps something (someone) is bad but since it was used by God to further God's purpose then this situation with a bad thing being used for the good of His purpose could be summed up as good.
So the fact that Adam and Eve are not mentioned as sinning in the garden yet, and are included in being very good, does not prove their moral goodness, only that their creation and the creation of the earth and the garden serves God's purpose.
All of the arguments that they had to be morally good in the garden as God cannot create evil depends upon their bodies being created for them in the Garden as descriptive of their first and original creation, which causes the theological difficulties of some of these verses. If it is accepted that their original creation was as spirits in the spirit world (Sheol) where they may have sinned before the creation of the physical universe, then there is no need to ascribe them perfection of moral purpose in the garden.
2.
Ever notice that and, behold, it was very good comes after Adam and Eve's creation as they are mentioned in a previous verse;
Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he THEM.
Yet in
Gen. 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
we have something being "not good." So not good in fact that it needed to be remedied, a remedy that came before the very good of verse 1:31. In other words the phrase very good is about a situation that started not good and then was corrected by giving Adam a helper.
3.
But first we have the animals...
Gen. 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Well, something hinky is going on here I think. Who's idea was it that an animal could/would be a suitable helpmeet (mate) for Adam? God's? I really don't think so... And why didn't God just tell Adam, "Hey - animals aren't for mating; I've a got a woman planned for you."?
Or was Adam being a little bit rebellious to God's idea of a proper helpmeet? It had to be Adam's idea, right? It couldn't be God's idea, Eve wasn't there yet nor was the snake (perhaps) nor would the animals themselves get this idea so who is left? Now if it was Adam's idea, was he in conformity to God's plan/purpose/will for him or not?
Isn't it that the plain reading of the text implies Adam was being rebellious to God's plan for him but created on earth in the garden theology forces a warped interpretation upon these verses?
4.
Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
Please notice that the word subtil of this verse and the word naked of the previous verse, Gen. 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. are the same word, only different in their vowels which were not invented until the modern age!
But consider just these words: more subtil than any beast of the field, don't they imply that the beasts had a certain subtilness, a certain craftyness, surpassed (only) by the snake?
So now during the everything was very good phase of existence we have:
- seriously fallen angels
- the badness of Adam's aloneness
- a deranged Adam trying to mate with the animals
- animals who were only a bit less evil than the snake, evil lite you might say.
Puts your old Sunday School teacher's version in a new light, eh? The only theology that treats these ideas in a straight forward manner without distortion is PCE, the belief we existed before the creation of the physical universe in a place where we ALL made our true free will choices, by faith without proof, to join God's Church forever or to take the chance on becoming His eternal enemy.
As members of God's fallen church, Adam and Eve came to inhabit their new earthly bodies in the garden to learn that sin is enslaving, that it causes immense suffering and that the enemies of God will hold their enmity for eternity, ie they can't be saved or loved into heaven.
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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marketandchurch
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Post #6
I absolutely love this. Is it open to a Jewish interpretation of the same passages? Let me know if this is okay, and I'll post my understanding of Genesis. We may only differ in the fact that satan exists in your story, but not in mine.
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DiscipleOfTruth
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Post #7
The Bible is open to anyone's interpretation of it. Please feel free to share whatever it is that you honestly believe
This thread is not about debate but rather the acknowledgement of different interpretations.
This thread is not about debate but rather the acknowledgement of different interpretations.
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marketandchurch
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Post #8
Here's the translation I'm using, and I've emboldened in red the things that I intend to respond to.
The JPS translation of Genesis 1 : 1-25
1
IN THE beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth.
2
Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of G-d hovered over the face of the waters.
3
And G-d said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light.
4
And G-d saw the light, that it was good; and G-d divided the light from the darkness.
5
And G-d called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6
And G-d said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.'
7
And G-d made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
8
And G-d called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9
And G-d said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so.
10
And G-d called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and G-d saw that it was good.
11
And G-d said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so.
12
And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and G-d saw that it was good.
13
And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
14
And G-d said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
15
and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so.
16
And G-d made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars.
17
And G-d set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18
and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and G-d saw that it was good.
19
And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
20
And G-d said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.'
21
And G-d created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and G-d saw that it was good.
22
And G-d blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.'
23
And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
24
And G-d said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind.' And it was so.
25
And G-d made the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the ground after its kind; and G-d saw that it was good.
URL of Webpage: http://www.breslov.com/bible/Genesis1.htm#1
Other Translations: http://www.breslov.com/ref/Genesis1.htm
The JPS translation of Genesis 1 : 1-25
1
IN THE beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth.
2
Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of G-d hovered over the face of the waters.
3
And G-d said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light.
4
And G-d saw the light, that it was good; and G-d divided the light from the darkness.
5
And G-d called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6
And G-d said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.'
7
And G-d made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
8
And G-d called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9
And G-d said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so.
10
And G-d called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and G-d saw that it was good.
11
And G-d said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so.
12
And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and G-d saw that it was good.
13
And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
14
And G-d said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
15
and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so.
16
And G-d made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars.
17
And G-d set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18
and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and G-d saw that it was good.
19
And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
20
And G-d said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.'
21
And G-d created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and G-d saw that it was good.
22
And G-d blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.'
23
And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
24
And G-d said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind.' And it was so.
25
And G-d made the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the ground after its kind; and G-d saw that it was good.
URL of Webpage: http://www.breslov.com/bible/Genesis1.htm#1
Other Translations: http://www.breslov.com/ref/Genesis1.htm
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marketandchurch
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Post #9
Genesis 1:1
Genesis 1:1 has many implications:
Genesis 1:3
Genesis 1:3 is very interesting. God creates Light & Darkness, but this creation precedes the sun & the moon, so we are talking of a light of an entirely different nature, or proportion. You can say this is referring to the Big-Bang, or an entirely unique Light to God, but it is interesting that God simply wills this light into existence. The pagans did not believe their God's willed reality into existence. Their God's were within nature, and had natural beginnings, and even had natural weakness. That is where voodoo comes from, and every culture had some sort of sense that they can find the natural weakness of a God, or contact the spiritual realm, by mixing ingredients, making potions, and reciting incantations.
Genesis 1: 6 - 8
In Genesis 1:6 - 8, it depicts the second day of Creation. But nothing gets created on the second day... the point of the second day of creation was to begin a theme that would run the entire length of the old testament, and that theme is: Order & Separation. God ordered things, and separated things, and if God constructs an Order, we are to try and understand the reason why he wanted it that way, and at least be sensitive of the fact that to undo God's order & to mix what he has separated, will have very real repercussions.
Genesis 1:14
This is one of my favorite versus. Genesis 1:1 is a clear diss to the pagan worldview. But it is only the first many shots that the bible will fire at pagans, in its' war to advance ethical monotheism. Genesis 1:14 designates the sun and the moon, which are not even mentioned by name, as nothing more then lights in the sky, to divide the day from night, and to be a sign for days, months, and years. The utter non-mentioning of the sun and the moon would have not sat well with any pagan. The utter irrelevancy they have beyond providing specific natural functions such as being a sign for days, months, and years, is a totally offensive charge for the bible to be making. People tend to just read this as a modern of our day, but to really take the gravity of what Genesis is all about, but you have to try to understand the messages of Genesis, from the view of a person, 3000 years ago. And you have to read Genesis as first and foremost, a war on polytheism and pagan traditions, as an ancient Pagan would have read it. Everything else is secondary, because if Genesis cannot do its task of undoing the basic premise that most pagans around the world held at that time, then everything else that follows in the Old Testament is utterly irrelevant.
Genesis 1:1 has many implications:
- 1.) There is a God,
2.) This Divine willed the world and all its laws into existence,
3.) The Universe had a beginning,
4.) An intelligence created the world,
5.) Purpose is infused and permeates the Universe,
6.) This Divine Intelligence created all of this from nothing,
7.) God is not in Nature, God preceded Nature, and Nature has no will of its own, and the Universe did not just will itself into existence
8.) God created Time, Time came into existence, & Time is a property of God's creation.
Genesis 1:3
Genesis 1:3 is very interesting. God creates Light & Darkness, but this creation precedes the sun & the moon, so we are talking of a light of an entirely different nature, or proportion. You can say this is referring to the Big-Bang, or an entirely unique Light to God, but it is interesting that God simply wills this light into existence. The pagans did not believe their God's willed reality into existence. Their God's were within nature, and had natural beginnings, and even had natural weakness. That is where voodoo comes from, and every culture had some sort of sense that they can find the natural weakness of a God, or contact the spiritual realm, by mixing ingredients, making potions, and reciting incantations.
Genesis 1: 6 - 8
In Genesis 1:6 - 8, it depicts the second day of Creation. But nothing gets created on the second day... the point of the second day of creation was to begin a theme that would run the entire length of the old testament, and that theme is: Order & Separation. God ordered things, and separated things, and if God constructs an Order, we are to try and understand the reason why he wanted it that way, and at least be sensitive of the fact that to undo God's order & to mix what he has separated, will have very real repercussions.
Genesis 1:14
This is one of my favorite versus. Genesis 1:1 is a clear diss to the pagan worldview. But it is only the first many shots that the bible will fire at pagans, in its' war to advance ethical monotheism. Genesis 1:14 designates the sun and the moon, which are not even mentioned by name, as nothing more then lights in the sky, to divide the day from night, and to be a sign for days, months, and years. The utter non-mentioning of the sun and the moon would have not sat well with any pagan. The utter irrelevancy they have beyond providing specific natural functions such as being a sign for days, months, and years, is a totally offensive charge for the bible to be making. People tend to just read this as a modern of our day, but to really take the gravity of what Genesis is all about, but you have to try to understand the messages of Genesis, from the view of a person, 3000 years ago. And you have to read Genesis as first and foremost, a war on polytheism and pagan traditions, as an ancient Pagan would have read it. Everything else is secondary, because if Genesis cannot do its task of undoing the basic premise that most pagans around the world held at that time, then everything else that follows in the Old Testament is utterly irrelevant.
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ttruscott
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Re: My response to chapter 2.
Post #10Your question exposes the fallacy that nakedness refers to their being unclothed.DiscipleOfTruth wrote:
...
What I do wonder though is why would there been a need to feel shame about nakedness? What is the shame in it when you are the only two people on earth, married at that. Perhaps an unexplainable instinct that was given to them as a reaction?
...
Chapter 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Chapter 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
If you have a Strong's concordance, you will see that naked is ref H6174 `arowm ä·r�m' naked and subtil is ref H6175, `aruwm ä·rüm' prudent, crafty, subtil.
Both 6174 and 6175 come from "a-r-m," a root Hebrew word translated as both naked and subtil or sinful.
This seems to say that the snake came to earth a sinner or was created a sinner (a theological stance most Christians reject) but the implications are weird.
It seems like Chapter 1 verse 25 could read: And they were both subtil, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. and implying that the snake was just more evil than they.
The reason the words are not translated that way goes waaaaay back to the early Jewish scholars who were obviously aware of this little trick of language and reasoned that since Adam and Eve could not have been created on Earth in a sinful state, the word must mean its synonym, naked.
This has been passed down since forever.
The big "but" is that if Adam and Eve were sinful in the garden, they must have arrived that way since they could not have been created that way. This implies that the creation of the souls happened before the creation of the physical universe and in that spirit state, some spirits had a true free will choice to bow to God or not and some fell without any outside instigation or coercion and some did not.
Though rejected by most modern Churches, some in the past have indeed followed this belief in the pre-conception (in a body) creation of the soul.
Consider what other scripture tells us about being naked:
Revelation 3:17 - Knowest not that thou are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked?
Here in Revelations, Jesus again uses the examples of nakedness and blindness to show the Church its needs, but He is doing this after His sacrifice had been made and AFTER they had been “converted / saved.�
This means that the “needed� things or emphasis was entirely upon their need for holiness in order that they could be right with Him, for they no longer needed that GOD should make a sacrifice to justify them. Not ashamed means they were blind to their great need to become holy...
So the nakedness of Adam and Eve refers to their spiritual state of being sinners (ie, subtil) and blind to their sin as proven by their lack of shame.
Genesis 3:21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. This is how GOD wants to redeem HIS lost; by that blood and by the coats. If it is a work to put on the coats of righteousness, then a rethink about the necessity of works might be necessary. Let's look at what GOD says about it:
WHITE clothing:
Rev 3:
1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
White clothing is a sign of an overcomer, worthy person. Still disbelieve that clothing refers to that which makes them holy?
Rev 3:18
18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
White clothing is the only acceptable cover of shameful nakedness, i.e. unrighteousness, sinfulness, being evil in GOD's sight.
Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?�
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.�
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Their clothes are made white in the blood of the Lamb…righteousness comes with the faith in the blood.
FINE LINEN:
Rev 19:7-9 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints. Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'
Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints. How important are these righteous acts to the wedding?
WEDDING CLOTHES:
Matt 22:2-14 ...Those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. The wedding was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who didn’t have on wedding clothing, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here not wearing wedding clothing?’ He was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness; there is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be.’ For many are called, but few chosen."
You access the redemption by belief in the bood, faith in his propitiation but without faithful works, righteous acts as symbolized by the clothing in these verses and in Genesis by the coat of skins, you are thrown out of the wedding, eh?
Something is going on here…and it is about the righteousness of those with faith, overcomers, wedding guests who made it through the tribulation…
Can't say I've made up my mind yet but the guy thrown out got the invite for his faith…he believed alright but did not act on it and poof.
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
