If God is infinite, then he is everything.... right?

[Ooberman]

If he is infinite, then no theistic opinion about God is wrong, even this statement.

It is likely that this deity doesn't exist, and since an infinite God is contradictory, it is probably less likely to be true. (Assuming basic laws of logic, our common presupposition).

Since, according to these laws of logic to be "True",the statement "God obtains" cannot be true, is true, and is also, possibly a quantum state (some "other").

Therefore, God does not exist.

The point of this line of inquiry, I suppose a purpose of this idea is to mull over the technicalities of how we arrive at basic assumptions about the world.

After all, we can't FIRST assume a God in order to prove a God exists. If we are trying to prove a God exists, we have to tip the balance in minds when they hear the actual logical argument.

The logical leap, to me, begins with both the Materialist and Supernaturalist. We don't REALLY know what things are made of, but if we go from what has been shown to be effective according to a large consensus of people that gravity works, and the natural laws appear to be consistent. The drama of nature, or the narrative of our lives appears to be a fact of our nature, and that's about all we know.

1. We are physical beings in this universe.
2. We can imagine real and unreal things.
3. We create narrative to ourselves and others to explain natural events, yet, the laws of nature cannot be translated accurately in the language of Man, but in the language of basic math.

We don't need to presume a God for any of them, and the Theist has to answer the question: "why is god a better answer for each of them, without presuming naturalism?"

Meanwhile, I don't think anything in the data shows any problem with the laws of nature being inviolable, and the dramas of our lives are the unique state of our Nature: we produce thoughts, narratives, and believe many things in metaphor, colloquialisms, and other tropes.

Tropes, and other games of words, twists of logic and other quirks as Man attempts to reflect Nature. We have at our disposal all the arts, and another quirk to our nature, the ability to imagine supernatural beings as if they are real.

Religion is a "greatest hits from mythology" in that religion (the process of creating a religion - a process unique to man, and neanderthals, apparently, and a few other Great Apes... And a few birds... And maybe elephants...) tries to capture a link to the conscience and codify it.

There are good reasons to do this, if you have some idea of your subjective position on "The Good" and how that fits into the larger scope of society's idea of "The Good". If you want to do Good, you find a reason to do it if it's not considered "Good" by society, increasingly to a point to being a psychopath. (There are ranges of experience that make morality, ultimately, an impossible task to normalize.)


Morality, like sight, is valuable to you, because it's valuable to you. We argue for that value by making our argument appear to have more weight than the converse.

The Theist comes up woefully short when they explain the basis of their provenance of their ideas: tradition.

In other words, the theist must presuppose the very characteristics of their God, in order to prove their God. Whereas, the naturalist only starts with the things we have a pretty good idea is true, through verification.

That cellphones work proves what Aristotle couldn't. Likewise, I doubt many people are going to challenge our model of the Solar System. And, genetics will never be overturned. These are really true things, it appears.

We are the awesomest of Apes, but Apes nonetheless. And that's OK.

[Jacob Simonsky]

[Replying to post 39 by Jacob Simonsky]

Yes I agree with the drift of what you are saying. Everything is happening in eternity. Matter 'grew' in eternity when God translated some of His energy into matter. One day it will dissolve away again. Enjoy your beer!

Right... It is my belief that the great and unknowable mind of God was directed, with purpose, upon spiritual matter (whatever that is) causing it to slow (in vibes?) and congeal into physical form (hydrogen/gravity). Then God institutes a system of change which, once began. has never yet stopped. This mechanism, powered by the tension 'tween matter and gravity, is known to science as evolution. Liberal Christian scholars have said this very thing. It is important to note, once again, that there is a very wide gulf between what liberals and conservatives believe in religion. I am a liberal religious type.

Thanks. The fact that we have beer proves there is a God who loves us but when I spilled mine I was convinced of the opposite. Sigh!

[mgb]

If he is infinite, then no theistic opinion about God is wrong, even this statement

Popular science writers perpetrate the idea that in eternity everything that can happen will happen. This is a fallacy. What would compel any particular thing to happen? If you have an infinite set of random numbers there is no reason to assume the set must contain a certain number, say 17. The set can be infinite but without 17 and indeed without an infinity of numbers. The mere infinity of the set does not force 17 to be a member of it.

[instantc]

If he is infinite, then no theistic opinion about God is wrong, even this statement

Popular science writers perpetrate the idea that in eternity everything that can happen will happen. This is a fallacy. What would compel any particular thing to happen? If you have an infinite set of random numbers there is no reason to assume the set must contain a certain number, say 17. The set can be infinite but without 17 and indeed without an infinity of numbers. The mere infinity of the set does not force 17 to be a member of it.

'Everything that can happen' implies things which have certain probability of actualizing. Given infinite amount of time, at some point of time those things will necessarily actualize. You are right though that an infinite set of numbers does not necessarily include every number.

However, the more general opinion among philosophers is that an actual infinity does not exist in the real world, it is merely a platonic concept like a perfect circle.

[mgb]

If he is infinite, then no theistic opinion about God is wrong, even this statement

Popular science writers perpetrate the idea that in eternity everything that can happen will happen. This is a fallacy. What would compel any particular thing to happen? If you have an infinite set of random numbers there is no reason to assume the set must contain a certain number, say 17. The set can be infinite but without 17 and indeed without an infinity of numbers. The mere infinity of the set does not force 17 to be a member of it.

Actually, the more general opinion among philosophers is that an actual infinity does not exist in the real world, it is merely a platonic concept.

This would answer the original post and dispose with, the postulated multiverse!

[Dantalion]

Like in so many other topics, the same specific argument is ignored.


(it's the 'how can you possibly make any specific claim about that which supposedly is beyond our ability to grasp' one)

[mgb]

Like in so many other topics, the same specific argument is ignored.


(it's the 'how can you possibly make any specific claim about that which supposedly is beyond our ability to grasp' one)

But who is to say that God is beyond our consciousness?

[Dantalion]

Like in so many other topics, the same specific argument is ignored.


(it's the 'how can you possibly make any specific claim about that which supposedly is beyond our ability to grasp' one)

But who is to say that God is beyond our consciousness?

Its a popular apologetic argument.

[mgb]

The Theist comes up woefully short when they explain the basis of their provenance of their ideas: tradition.

In other words, the theist must presuppose the very characteristics of their God, in order to prove their God. Whereas, the naturalist only starts with the things we have a pretty good idea is true, through verification.

The basis of theism is revelation not tradition. The theist believes that God can make Himself known to man.

[instantc]

Like in so many other topics, the same specific argument is ignored.


(it's the 'how can you possibly make any specific claim about that which supposedly is beyond our ability to grasp' one)

But who is to say that God is beyond our consciousness?

Its a popular apologetic argument.

You have probably misunderstood the argument, an apologist would likely say that our logical faculties and limited knowledge are not sufficient to make judgments on God's reasons and purposes. That leaves the revelations the only possible source for us to find out about God's character and intentions.

[Goat]

Like in so many other topics, the same specific argument is ignored.


(it's the 'how can you possibly make any specific claim about that which supposedly is beyond our ability to grasp' one)

But who is to say that God is beyond our consciousness?

Who can show that God is anything more than an idea in our consciousness?? Can you show that God exists independently from the ideas about God? Can you show that God is more than an idea?