What Matters?

[Ooberman]

Since we are on a debate site, it appears that we all, at least, think these discussions are worth debating.

From what I have seen is that after all of human history, the "Atheist vs. Theist" debate shows no signs of stopping, or anyone ending the debate for good.

So, why do we spend our time doing it and not something else? Why aren't we reading Shakespeare, training for a 3K, learning a language or instrument?

And, we may all being doing all of those, but why does this debate matter?

For me, I see it a dreary job of getting Theists to admit the reality they know is True: whether there is a God or not, we've got to role up our sleeves and do the hard work.

Of course, no one REALLY wants to do the hard work for discovering the Ultimate Truth. It would take a remarkable person, and a very flawed person. Incapable of having normal relationships, ignoring friends and family all for a vain pursuit of "Knowledge".

And, then, even if this person proves the nature of reality without a shadow of a doubt, we'd still have to verify it.

Claims are a dime a dozen. I could give you 12 different concepts of how Reality MAY exist, but I don't know and neither does any one person on this planet.

There is no reason to trust another's grasp of some metaphysical realm better than myself if I studied it, however, I have only made it my serious hobby. I don't claim to be an expert, and have more questions than not, and few, if any, entertain a God. God seems such a cop out, even if God existed.

After all, wouldn't God have some Reason to act - a Reason I could understand? What led him to that knowledge? Why would a Being with all knowledge weigh the morality in such a way that seems to allow a broad range of "crimes against humanity".

Sure, I'd use a human standard, but the best one available: the general consensus of all rational individuals in my society: Believe what you want, but don't use BS to form a consensus.


Surely, we human beings are responsible for shouting down - out of sheer arrogance and subjective moral values - bad ideas. The KKK, Nazism, the Inquisition, Maoism, etc... The examples are famous, and they are in our own communities, only not so far ranging.

If some of us have a say in this Life to shout down dangerous ideas, and I believe I do because I exist in this social group, it seems to matter to have these discussions.

However, as passionate as we get, I believe in a fair fight. I don't want to say anything that could be construed dishonest for the sake of winning a point - unless you are obviously trying to bring humor.... etc...

The discussion SHOULD be drilling down to a better common understanding of truth, but instead we seem to be working to two very different ideas, and they simply can't co-exist.

Naturalism vs. Supernaturalism, specifically, Religionism, are, IMO, a dangerous Idea. There are other bad Ideas, but that doesn't mean we ignore Religionists, including the Propaganda branch of Religion, Apologetics (as practiced by the popular and academic community). Apologetics takes a certain personality. I should know, I am an Atheist Apologist. I am trying to work myself out of a job.

Atheists were killed over voicing their opinions. It makes sense to take advantage of this new found Freedom of Speech.

Maybe atheism doesn't win, and that's not the point. The point, for me, is to remind the Religious communities that evidence is their enemy if they hope to get religious ideas passed in Congress.

We have to remember we are simple Apes.

With that, we still have a Life to carve out. Once we get past questioning "why do I exist?" because it's just a Brute Fact we exist. We were born this way. Whether God made us or not.

So, then you look forward and judge: "What can I do?" "What can I do better than someone else, or worse?"

"Who am I?" "What MATTERS to me?"



I don't think all of this MATTERS. My children MATTER, I don't quite know why, but it's probably ingrained. Certainly, it's beautiful, but if it weren't we'd shun our children, and probably not survive as a species, or individual, since then the son, when stronger, might come back to take resources.... This is for individuals as much as it is for nations.


Anyhow,..

Some people feel their Country MATTERS. Their Clan, their religion, their music, their profession, helping people, building things, cruising the internet for porn, writing on online forums...

But is there something that REALLY matters to you, something external and completely for you - that is, you don't need anyone else to join in with you (unless that's part of what matters?)

Knowing people? Helping People? Warm, honest communication? Private Time? Social Time? Tools? Home? Food? the evironment?


This is not meant to be a single answer, just to spark conversation.

[EsotericVerity]

[Replying to post 1 by Ooberman]

I have always found it very sad that people find themselves coming to conclusions such as you have. (I don't mean any disrespect like saying you are a sad sort of person). And it seems to me that the ideas of there being no Ultimate Reality, or no meaning, or no Ultimately verifiable Truth, all end up defeating the person in the end anyway.

You mentioned that no one really wants to do the hard work to discover the ultimate truth, but I strongly disagree. What are people doing debating, reading, studying, praying, thinking if NOT to work to discover Truth? And even more shocking, you seem to claim there is no Reality (Perhaps I misunderstood your words?) but there IS reality. The reality is: I smack you. It hurts. NOT: I smack you. And you wonder if there is such a thing as a hand with which to feel touch (ie. the throbbing in your cheek).

If there truly were no reality, and no meaning, then you and I should never have had a mind to ponder the reality of truth and/or meaning. Just as if there were no such thing as light, and therefore no eyes, creatures would have no knowledge that there was darkness. "Dark" would be a word without meaning. (paraphrased/quoted from C.S. Lewis)

You grant that your children have meaning, and they MATTER. And I agree that it is probably ingrained. But that ingraining was placed there for a purpose. Even from an atheistic point of view, every effect must have a first cause. And that first cause must have a source, otherwise what then "caused" it?

As to us being Apes, I would simply say that even truly dedicated genetic scientists would not support this claim based on any founded evidence. There is a long list of cited "proofs" or "evidence" or "examples" that books and curriculums submit to, but none of them have even a shred of actually verifiable supports. Lucy seems to be every naturalists favorite go-to (feel free to offer another one, for I would like to research any new claims I have not yet heard) and even "she" is a fraud. A couple of bones were found from the rib cage, a shattered piece of the pelvis, a piece of chin bone, and a femur. What IS documented in the journal of one of the men who found the cave is that there were dozens of skeletons in this cave, both human AND animal (among which were some of the primate Order). It is also noted that the femur was found on the other side of the cave two meters under ground.

I don't mean to drag on about debatable facts really, but more mean to express that if your claim were true, and we had no meaning, and there was no reality, what then, are you addressing? The simple fact that you created this post means that even you, whether subconsciously or otherwise, acknowledge the Reality that IS, as well as the necessity to seek meaning, and specifically yours.

[Divine Insight]

You mentioned that no one really wants to do the hard work to discover the ultimate truth, but I strongly disagree.

I'm pretty sure Ooberman meant this within the context of the Atheist versus Theists debates and not in general.

Well all know that scientists are hard at work to discover the ultimate truth.

That doesn't appear to be the case for theologians. For if it were the case they would have rejected the Hebrew Bible as having no more merit than Greek mythology a very long time ago.

What are people doing debating, reading, studying, praying, thinking if NOT to work to discover Truth?

Most apologists, evangelists, and theologians I debate with appear to me to have a very narrow and limited agenda. And that is to stand behind their chosen religion at all cost, no matter how utterly absurd their excuses need to become.

Is that a desire to work hard to discover the truth?

I don't think so.

If they aren't even brave enough to consider the possibility that their chosen religion might be false then they have absolutely no interest in truth at all, IMHO.

I understood the distinction between God and religion very early in my life. I also understood the difference between faith and denial.

All religions and spiritual philosophies are based entirely on faith. There is not proof for any of them. This is a fact of truth. Learning to accept this is one of the first things any theist should sincerely try to understand before preaching to other people the fallacies of their religious claims.

The second thing theists really need to do is recognize the difference between religion and "God". Dogma is not God, yet most theologians treat dogma as if it is the "Word of God" which is just as bad. Especially when no two theologians even agree on what the dogma has to say. How can dogma be claimed to be the "Word of God" when no two people can even agree on what it has to say.

One TRUTH that has been well-established by the seekers of Truth (i.e. scientists) is that death, disease, thorns on plants, natural disasters, and a dog-eat-dog world existed long before mankind ever showed up on planet Earth.

The dogma most often argued for by theologians is the dogma of the "Holy Bible" or other Abrahamic fables. But all of those fables attempt to pin the blame onto mankind for all the supposed evils of the world.

We know now that this is simply not true. So there is no truth in the Abrahamic religions that proclaim that all of humanity fell from grace and is in dire need of salvation.

I see that in your signature file you have a quote that states:

“A man rejects God neither because of intellectual demands nor because of the scarcity of evidence. A man rejects God because of a moral resistance that refuses to admit his need for God.�

But that very ideal is clearly false. The very fact that the Bible itself makes these sorts of claims shows that the Bible is false and contains lies.

I know with absolute certainty that this quote is indeed false. Because I don't reject the Bible due to moral resistance. That is indeed a lie created by religious zealots.

It's not doing them any good to lie about humanity in an effort to support their absurd religions. How does lying lead to truth?

I personally retain a belief in "God" or a mystical spiritual essence to reality. Certainly not the highly immoral God portrayed int he Bible. In fact, I reject that picture of God precisely because it's clearly not moral and has no moral integrity.

However, my sister is a convinced atheist. She does not believe in any concept of "God" she is totally convinced that there is definitely no such thing.

Anyone who tries to tell me that my sister is resisting morality will never succeed. My sister is a very concerned social worker who is extremely sensitive and compassionate and concerned about morality and the health and emotional welfare of everyone. In fact, she becomes too involved with her job and often tortures herself over the anguish and suffering of others.

To even remotely suggest that she rejects a God because of moral resistance is extremely absurd. The mere fact that apologists need to scrap the bottom of the barrel to come up with these kinds of false accusations only proves that they have absolutely nothing to support their dogma.

IMHO, when apologists stoop to these kind of disgusting and offensive accusations it's just proof positive that they have absolutely nothing to offer but offensive insults aimed toward anyone who refuses to buy into their empty doctrines.

In a very real sense it's nothing more than emotional hate speech to accuse people of something that is clearly as far from truth as any accusation can be.

I confess that evangelists, apologists, and religious proselytizers often make me quite angry when they used their insensitive hateful tactics that have no merit whatsoever. All they amount to are derogatory insults that have no substance at all.

There is no truth in that kind of ignorance.

~~~~~

As far as what really matters to me. My family used to matter to me but they are all dead now. Now I guess one of the things that continues to matter to me is when I see ignorant religious proselytizers spreading lies and hateful accusations toward others in the name of their highly immoral dogmas.

There is no morality in any of the Abrahamic religions. They are all nothing more than hateful religious bigotry based on lies. That's my TRUTH. And they never were anything more than this from the get go.

If there is a God associated with the Bible he would be the most hateful demon in existence, IMHO. There's nothing there worthy of worship. It's an extremely immoral cult that preaches hatred in the name of its jealous hateful God. The sooner humanity is rid of these hateful religions the better off we will all be.

Exposing them for the lies they are is actually a very productive agenda. If peace matters, then getting rid of these hateful religion that are the cause of so much social unrest and even physical violence and outright wars is a worthwhile cause.

So hopefully peace matters to a lot of people and we will eventually rid ourselves of these hateful lying religions.

I have no problem with spirituality or a belief in the mystical nature of reality. But if these hateful Abrahamic religions based on their hateful jealous God are going to continue to use spirituality as a weapon of hate, then I would much rather see humanity become totally atheistic. Peaceful atheists are far better than hateful spiritualists.

And as long as the Abrahamic religions continue to be used for hateful purposes, they have no value.

It's truly a shame that they have overshadowed the genuinely loving and sane spiritual philosophies, but that's water over the dam now. The Abrahamic religions have spread so much hatred in the name of their jealous God that they have basically destroyed the very concept of "God". People hear that word and want to throw up. And I can't personally say that I blame them at all.

[EsotericVerity]

[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

Scientists only search for a certain type of truth. But it is far from Ultimate. There simply aren't scientific reasons for all truth. Science cannot explain morality. And nowhere ever has it ever claimed to do so.

I agree with you that most apologists and theist have a very narrow and limited agenda. But that is precisely the point of every debate is it not? Is your worldview any less narrow? That "The sooner humanity is rid of these hateful religions the better we will all be?"

How is this any less narrow? "Narrow" does not demand falsehood. It simply exhibits confidence in that idea/worldview.

And for all of your words about the hatefulness of theists and the God of the bible, you obviously have not read the bible at all. There is no hate there. Is there punishment? Yes. Did you parents punish you? I imagine they did, as every good parent does. That does not make them evil or hateful parents. In fact, it is precisely BECAUSE they love the child that they punish and reprimand him. Furthermore, in the child's extremely limited understanding and knowledge of how the world works, he may think the parent is being hateful. But that is only because he is ignorant to the ways of truth. You grant that there is such a thing as a "God" of sorts, or "mystical spiritual essence to reality." Whatever that God is, could it not be that He simply knows more than you? He did create all that is after all… Saying that you reject Him because you feel that He is immoral is akin to saying that in order to believe in Him, He must do things the way you think they should be done. Well then you might as well be saying that YOU are God, since a "Real" God or a "Good" God would do it your way.

You also said that there is no proof for any religious philosophies. It is really quite an interesting thing, proof. Would you say that there is proof of atom structure? Atom structure has never been observed, we simply say that based on the way the act and react, a plausible explanation of their formation is the accepted principle of neutrons and protons surrounded by a kind of "cloud" of electrons. But that is hardly the same kind of "proof" you are ridiculing religious philosophies for lacking.

And I might ask that explain where evil might have come for if not from men? It certainly is not originated from animals, even more so if evolution is true, for any murder, bullying, or presumed "evil" would simply be survival of the fittest. And it certainly could not come from this God that you say doesn't exist. So what other explanation is there? What evil is there that does not concern humans? It is non-existent.

Speaking of your sister, she may be a lovely woman. And I would not presume to claim anything whatsoever regarding her morality. But I will indeed point out that sympathy towards suffering is no more a definition for morality than is throwing food in a pan the definition of cooking. That is but one small piece of what it means to be moral, and you do am immeasurable disservice to the intelligibility of a moral being.

I have come to notice that many people on this forum claim to know things "with absolute certainty." It is quite interesting that so many claim to have absolute knowledge of something while being entirely incapable of even understanding how their brain is even deriving such "conclusions."

While I respect your view, I will go so far as to say that you defeat yourself sir. Your very opinions that ascribe hatefulness and evil to theologians do, in fact, assert such hatefulness in yourself. I do not believe you to be a truly hateful person necessarily, (although you could be, I do not know you) but your words are unequivocally malicious.

[keithprosser3]

Scientists only search for a certain type of truth. But it is far from Ultimate. There simply aren't scientific reasons for all truth. Science cannot explain morality. And nowhere ever has it ever claimed to do so.

The difference between theology and a 'proper science' is that theology maintains the existence of God as an axiom. You might also say the apologetics is ruined by its unstated axiom that scripture makes sense.

Theologians and apologist tie themselves in knots because they can't contradict the axioms on which they depend. It is sad to watch them wriggle and twist trying to square the circles this presents them with.

It is like the pre-copernican astronomers, inventing all sorts of more and more complex systems of epi-cycles within epi-cylces within cycles when all that was needed was to let go of a false axiom - that the earth is the centre of the universe.

But theologians can't very well abandon the axiom of god's existence, no matter how absurdly convoluted and downright weird it makes their arguments appear because then their entire 'science' would cease to exist.

Science has no such pivotal axioms, or none that I can think of that would not also bring down theology, such as dependence of logic.

[EsotericVerity]

[Replying to post 5 by keithprosser3]

It is no more axiomatic than your "science." (I quote it because I believe true science does not disprove creation) The science that the vast majority of atheists and people in general succumb to started with a Big Bang, and that idea has gotten more and more precarious. It used to simply be a belief that everything had a finite beginning. And then it became an infinite universe, and then it became a finite point that had infinite mass the expanded with incredible force (which requires infinite energy).

Now, obviously this is but one scientific theory about origin, but the others are no less "axiomatic" as you would call it.

And because a person ties other self in a knot trying to explain something does not necessitate a false premise, but rather a fallible human being who is confronted with his limits of understanding. We have all been there; yourself, myself, Richard Dawkins, Dr. John Lenox, Einstein...

You cannot rightly claim that science has no such "pivotal axioms." They littered all over science.

[keithprosser3]

You are of course completely wrong. Your claim the science is littered with axioms is somewhat undermined by your failure to give an example of one!

The history of science is littered all right - with discarded 'axioms' - things that were thought to be true but turned out not to be (although 'axiom' is not really the word I'd use).

Science gets better by proving itself to be mistaken. The Big Bang replaced the previous paradigm of an unchanging universe... the Big Bang is not necessarily exactly true, but it is almost certainly nearer the truth that the 'steady state' model it replaced. Will the big bang be replaced a different paradigm? My guess is not, but it will almost certainly be changed - or refined - as time goes on. But even if the BB is completely debunked, physics will not collapse.

But how can theology survive giving up the axiom of divine existence?

[Ooberman]

[Replying to post 1 by Ooberman]

I have always found it very sad that people find themselves coming to conclusions such as you have. (I don't mean any disrespect like saying you are a sad sort of person). And it seems to me that the ideas of there being no Ultimate Reality, or no meaning, or no Ultimately verifiable Truth, all end up defeating the person in the end anyway.

I believe there is an Ultimate Reality. What it is, I argue, is beyond all of us.

You mentioned that no one really wants to do the hard work to discover the ultimate truth, but I strongly disagree. What are people doing debating, reading, studying, praying, thinking if NOT to work to discover Truth?

Supporting their prior and preferred beliefs, primarily.

And even more shocking, you seem to claim there is no Reality (Perhaps I misunderstood your words?) but there IS reality. The reality is: I smack you. It hurts. NOT: I smack you. And you wonder if there is such a thing as a hand with which to feel touch (ie. the throbbing in your cheek).

I agree there is Reality, so you misunderstood.

I'm going to chalk it up to my inadequate writing skills to express myself as well sa I would like.

If there truly were no reality, and no meaning, then you and I should never have had a mind to ponder the reality of truth and/or meaning. Just as if there were no such thing as light, and therefore no eyes, creatures would have no knowledge that there was darkness. "Dark" would be a word without meaning. (paraphrased/quoted from C.S. Lewis)

I partly agree. However, we often make words to denote things that don't exist.

You grant that your children have meaning, and they MATTER. And I agree that it is probably ingrained. But that ingraining was placed there for a purpose. Even from an atheistic point of view, every effect must have a first cause. And that first cause must have a source, otherwise what then "caused" it?

That which caused it. I have no idea what that "thing" is any more than you do.

It's a fools errand to think we have a special perspective to determine how the Universe, Life and Everything was caused. Many people use placeholders for the unknown. For example, "God", "Fate", etc.

As to us being Apes, I would simply say that even truly dedicated genetic scientists would not support this claim based on any founded evidence.

We are Apes. It's not a debate. It's how we classify ourselves among the other animal species.We may be "more" than mere Apes in some metaphysical sense, but that is for someone else to argue. I won't. I don't see it. When I see humans I see Apes.


The larger point, is that there seems to be things that matter much more than discovering the Actual Truth.

I bet 99% of people have not made it their life's work to discover the Ultimate Truth. The most people have been able to do is prove a few facts.


Let me ask you personally, what REALLY matters to you? What would you think, after your life is over, and you are spending an eternity hanging out with your God, what about your life will you look back on as the most important thing for you?

That you were honest? Kind? Honorable? Brave? etc? But why? Why would those things matter most?

Would it be your time with friends? Family?

Would it really be "knowing God"? Because that seems so utterly dreary to me. It's something you can't prove, and if you are wrong about your God, then after your death, we will simply say "not only did he not get out of his life what mattered to him, his entire life's focus and life was meaningless."

Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not trying to argue there isn't a God. I'm suggesting you can't know. Even if there is a God, you might never know God, or serve God, or do any of the things your religion might claim you can do.

So, it seems you have to have a contingency for your life.

(For example, my contingency "plan" (using the term loosely) if there is a God is that I will simply say "well, I was wrong" and place myself at the mercy of a, hopefully, truly moral and loving God. I am not worried in the least that if God exists he would punish me for not believing certain things. That's petty and obviously a man-made characteristic of some Gods.)

This leaves me to focus on things that matter more to me.

[EsotericVerity]

[Replying to post 8 by Ooberman]

I want to start by saying I appreciate your character in responses and lack of hostility. Too many people get their nickers in a bunch when debating differing views.

To answer your question of what will matter to me most as I look back, I must admit I may sound the part of the typical evangelical here, but you asked for my personal answer. So my personal answer is this: What will matter to me most is that I lived my life for the purpose for which I was made. I was made to worship and glorify God. And the extent to which I do that is the extent of my achieving my purpose.

Now, let me ask a genuine question, (so for those who would impulsively vomit inconsiderate, ignorant condescension, spare you yourself the breath). Speaking of myself, as evidence for my belief and not as an attempt to persuade anyone, how can you tell me that there is no evidence of a God when I personally have seen "miracles" or supernatural occurrences that can ONLY be explained by God? I understand how you may not believe that these things actually happen, or are coincedence, or have some other explanation, but for one who has witnessed the consistent work of God in my life, how can I then claim non-belief?

If a man's finger prints are found one murder weapon, that is proof at the very least that he held it at some point. If I am driving on the freeway, and fall asleep at the wheel, thus slamming into the center divider, and yet there is never a scratch on my vehicle, is a supernatural occurrence not a plausible explanation? Or if my good friend is diagnosed with cancer, and a few weeks later the tumor is suddenly vanished, why is God's intervention not a valid explanation when we are looking at the two MRIs side by side and there is clearly a mass in one and not the other? Or perhaps the sudden inexplicable urge to stop a woman walking down the street, to tell her that even though she is pregnant, she will make it, and here is $775 for rent this month. (When I had no clue who she was, or what her rent cost, and she herself and just that morning learned she was pregnant and stressing how she would make it).

Now, I don't give these examples to try and convince you, for then we have the unending and pointless argument of whether or not I am even telling the truth to you, or lying to try and make you accept my side of the argument. But rather, in myself, how could I not see that as proof? How would that appear as anything BUT acts of God? So perhaps consider that when discussing the topic with others. They are simply unwilling to accept your side for pride's sake, but rather may have had unexplainable experiences that lead to unexplainable trust that they have made the right decision regardless of other arguments.

[Ooberman]

[Replying to post 8 by Ooberman]

I want to start by saying I appreciate your character in responses and lack of hostility. Too many people get their nickers in a bunch when debating differing views.

Likewise.

To answer your question of what will matter to me most as I look back, I must admit I may sound the part of the typical evangelical here, but you asked for my personal answer. So my personal answer is this: What will matter to me most is that I lived my life for the purpose for which I was made. I was made to worship and glorify God. And the extent to which I do that is the extent of my achieving my purpose.

What draws you to your religion? Your concept of God? What about your purpose is particularly vivid for you?

I try to understand your concept of God as a kind of worship of Goodness itself, but with some particularly rich mythologies mixed in. Which can include secular religions (as many have called Science, but I think is more appropriately called "Scientism", since there is a thing worthy of the "Title" "Science.

I don't mean to diminish it, but I try to place it into my framework. I too have a "religion" - a collection of stories/narratives that I peice together to form my version of naturalism. I am probably wrong in many ways, and maybe even wrong all together. It SEEMS right to me. I FEEL sane... However... how do I know I am perhaps sane in the clinical sense, but with a diminished capacity to see the evidence of God Himself. That seems less likely than naturalism.

So, I think I feel your same idea of what "Matters". I think it's tied up in what we might think the best scenario is for us, and hope some of it pans out.

We all hope the gods have a joyous life planned for us. I hope I am a good representative of my "self". I hope I am a good person, and that my conscience agrees.

Yet, let me ask you, would you be fulfilled, for example, dying in Afghanistan for your country, meanwhile you children are raised without you?

If that's what God had planned, it would be better than choking on a walnut, slipping in the tub and the vast majority of ways we probably will die.

And then comes eternity. For eternity we either replay it in our minds over and over, or *poof*, it's all gone.. residual memories of you live on in your kids, and maybe your grandkids.

Maybe there's a Heaven where you get to live other lives for eternity, but this is the ONE life you get on Earth. Presumably. Who doesn't have regrets? Who wouldn't want to be "reborn"?

But, this ONE life you have here is who you are forever. We have this body once. It's ours to ink, scar, abuse, use, improve, maintain, etc.

The choices of our lives are made once and we will never have the chance to go back and change some. Some really major ones.

Now, let me ask a genuine question, (so for those who would impulsively vomit inconsiderate, ignorant condescension, spare you yourself the breath). Speaking of myself, as evidence for my belief and not as an attempt to persuade anyone, how can you tell me that there is no evidence of a God when I personally have seen "miracles" or supernatural occurrences that can ONLY be explained by God? I understand how you may not believe that these things actually happen, or are coincedence, or have some other explanation, but for one who has witnessed the consistent work of God in my life, how can I then claim non-belief?

I think what you have heard and have seen can be explained naturally. Without looking at each case, it appears the rankings are:

Of Known Miracles, all were either:
1. Proven to be of natural origin
2. Uninvestigated
3. Proven to be of supernatural origin

I know of NO miracle in the #3 slot.

I think your brain is structured in a way that makes you have visions of an idealized human being that you feel is worship-worthy. Maybe you had/have a great relationship with your Father and you idealize him?

There are both physiological and psychological factors that need to be considered before we prove a miracle.

After all, many people claim miracles on behalf of their gods, or magic, or wishing for quantum effects.

If a man's finger prints are found one murder weapon, that is proof at the very least that he held it at some point. If I am driving on the freeway, and fall asleep at the wheel, thus slamming into the center divider, and yet there is never a scratch on my vehicle, is a supernatural occurrence not a plausible explanation? Or if my good friend is diagnosed with cancer, and a few weeks later the tumor is suddenly vanished, why is God's intervention not a valid explanation when we are looking at the two MRIs side by side and there is clearly a mass in one and not the other?

Obviously I can't answer any of those questions not having been there, or know about them.

But why don't I know about them? Why aren't we amazed that God is proven to exist based on all these constant streams of miracles? Or, why aren't I, at least?

These are questions I don't expect you to know the answer to either... we simply believe differently.

BTW, did you really see the MRI's? I believe there is a better chance of getting a false positive, then getting follow ups that are better quality.

I would almost bet this is what happened. I bet the Doctor didn't say "It's a miracle!" I bet he said, "We got your results back and the tests were negative. We'll do some more to make sure, but we often get false positives with older equipment and less knowledgable staff."

I'm not trying to say you are lying - I only have what you gave me, and I'm comparing it to what I have heard in my circles.

Or perhaps the sudden inexplicable urge to stop a woman walking down the street, to tell her that even though she is pregnant, she will make it, and here is $775 for rent this month. (When I had no clue who she was, or what her rent cost, and she herself and just that morning learned she was pregnant and stressing how she would make it).

You sound like a nice guy. Maybe she was on the verge of crying and rubbing her stomach. Most people know what that means... but to put it together in a nice narrative certainly sounds wonderful.
I wish more people were like you.

Now, I don't give these examples to try and convince you, for then we have the unending and pointless argument of whether or not I am even telling the truth to you, or lying to try and make you accept my side of the argument. But rather, in myself, how could I not see that as proof?

I get you. I don't know. It APPEARS from my perspective, that your brain is of the types most people have. An enlarged r precuneus.

If not that, the attribution of agency to random events. Perhaps the only way you make sense of your world is in the Christian framework? It's not a majority, but it's a good number of the world.. maybe 20% (33% of the world is Christian, but I would guess about 10% are more 'culturally Christian". These are my assumptions. You don't have to share them.)

How would that appear as anything BUT acts of God?

I know. It's weird, but you or I could be under a form of a delusion that is made sense through our use of language and construction of abstract concepts.

Perhaps you have the type of mind that loves the Christian story and my mind loves the materialism story?

So perhaps consider that when discussing the topic with others. They are simply unwilling to accept your side for pride's sake, but rather may have had unexplainable experiences that lead to unexplainable trust that they have made the right decision regardless of other arguments.

Wise words. I think we all want to feel good about ourselves and how we view reality.

It's hard for me to be an atheist in a world of theists. I find the common discussions about life are worse than the wisdom found in reality TV shows. PLatitudes are perhaps useful, and worth currency, but they are meaningless in the attempt at understanding The Truth, but understanding ourselves and where we fit in in the universe.


You call it God's Plan for you, I call it Fate. You are trying to see if God can help you alter your life towards "His Will" in hopes of finding joy in it, and I am attempting to find joy in altering my Fate as well.

We both figure "one more prayer/one more post and I might dig a little deeper into The Truth!".

We both believe that there is an idealized life available to use through hard work, and we both believe that part of understanding The Truth, we presume, is by Action. We can't shut ourselves in a Library to search for The Truth, since part of The Truth seems to have some some social contract associated with it.

AKA, Balance, as I think the Eastern Religions translate it?