another free will question

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
no evidence no belief
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:18 pm

another free will question

Post #1

Post by no evidence no belief »

The typical theist argument is that God gave people free will, and is not responsible for people's choice to do evil with their free will.

I think that's a simplistic argument.

Our free will allows men to insert the penis in the anus of children, and unfortunately men use their free will to make that choice very often, creating tremendous physical, mental and emotional damage in the child and society as a whole.

Our free will would also allow men to forcibly insert a finger all the way inside a child's ear, causing loss of hearing, internal bleeding, possible death and all sorts of physical, mental and emotional damage in the child and society as a whole. But somehow we almost never do that.

Why is it that the same free will that gives us the ability to do any evil equally, somehow results in thousands of anal rapes, but virtually zero forced ear fingerings?

It seems to me that there is more than free will at play here.

I would argue that separate from our free will, which is a wonderful thing, we have instinctive urges built into our nervous, hormonal, lymphatic and genital systems.

I would argue that these urges are poorly designed. Getting an erection when seeing a child bending over is NOT a question of free will. It's an entirely subconscious process. Of course one can use his free will to decide not to ACT on his sexual impulses, but if our nervous, hormonal, lymphatic and genital systems was designed in such a way that men only got sexually excited at the sight of adults, then they could STILL use their free will to commit all sorts of child abuse. But I would argue that if our body was designed better, the instances of child abuse involving penetration of their anus would be no more common than child abuse involving the penetration of their ears.


Let me put it another way. Some children are unfortunately HIV positive. Most pedophiles who know what HIV is, would avoid raping an HIV positive child. They still can use their free will to choose to rape the child anyway, but in most cases they will not.

Can we agree that God is NOT limiting the free will of pedophiles by causing some children to have AIDS?

Now, what if some new disease appeared which affected ALL CHILDREN, and it didn't cause any harm to them, but caused instant death to anybody who raped them? Would that curb the free will of pedophiles to any greater degree than HIV in children curbs their free will?

I argue that it would not. Does the fact that raping porcupines is really painful curb the free will of people into bestiality?


In conclusion, it is logically inescapable that widespread pedophilia is NOT an unavoidable byproduct of free will. God would have the power to let us have the cake and eat it too. God would have the power to give us free will AND make anal rape as common as ear rape.

Questions for debate: Why did God design our biological impulses so poorly that they often misfire and result in child rape?

If he has the power to bring anal rape occurrences to the same level as ear rapes WITHOUT limiting free will in any way, why doesn't he?

no evidence no belief
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:18 pm

Post #61

Post by no evidence no belief »

mgb wrote:
no evidence no belief wrote: Are you saying that it's impossible for God to design a human body so that a man loses his erection when near the anus of a child, irrespective of what the man has on his mind?
What you are saying is that God should take away our free will to do good or evil. If people are to be good they must have the power to be good and that means the power to be evil. Mankind needs to see evil for what it is and reject it.
Are you saying that a man with erectile disfunction cannot be evil?

A man with erectile disfunction cannot rape a child. But he can still use his free will to choose to do all sorts of other things.
mgb wrote:
Our body is FULL of reflexes that are completely beyond our free will.

If I clap my hands in front of your face, you will blink. No matter what. If I told you "If you blink I will kill your mother" you would still blink.
Free will does not mean the freedom to, for example, fly around the kitchen. We can't do that, or many other things. We can't walk through walls. Free will concerns moral freedom. The abuser has the freedom to decide not to abuse.
EXACTLY! We cannot fly around the kitchen, we cannot avoid blinking when somebody claps their hands in front of our face, etc. That takes NOTHING away from our free will. If men had erectile disfunction when trying to rape children it would take NOTHING away from free will, it would NOT be a limit on the person's mind, just on the person's body, like the inability to walk through walls, or keep your knee still when tapped. It would just GREATLY reduce child rape.

mgb
Guru
Posts: 1668
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:21 pm
Location: Europe
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Post #62

Post by mgb »

no evidence no belief wrote:EXACTLY! We cannot fly around the kitchen, we cannot avoid blinking when somebody claps their hands in front of our face, etc. That takes NOTHING away from our free will. If men had erectile disfunction when trying to rape children it would take NOTHING away from free will, it would NOT be a limit on the person's mind, just on the person's body, like the inability to walk through walls, or keep your knee still when tapped. It would just GREATLY reduce child rape.
If God takes away to power to do evil He takes away the power to do good. Using your argument you could ask why God does not make millions of people stupid so they won't use their brains to exploit others, as many capitalists and clever people do. Perhaps God should make millions of people cripples so they won't bully others or take people's hands off so they won't steal? There is no end to this but it is not God's way. God's way is to teach mankind how to use its power wisely and this means getting mankind to reject evil, not preventing people from doing evil by taking away their free will.

User avatar
Peter
Guru
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:46 pm
Location: Cape Canaveral
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #63

Post by Peter »

mgb wrote:
no evidence no belief wrote:EXACTLY! We cannot fly around the kitchen, we cannot avoid blinking when somebody claps their hands in front of our face, etc. That takes NOTHING away from our free will. If men had erectile disfunction when trying to rape children it would take NOTHING away from free will, it would NOT be a limit on the person's mind, just on the person's body, like the inability to walk through walls, or keep your knee still when tapped. It would just GREATLY reduce child rape.
If God takes away to power to do evil He takes away the power to do good. Using your argument you could ask why God does not make millions of people stupid so they won't use their brains to exploit others, as many capitalists and clever people do. Perhaps God should make millions of people cripples so they won't bully others or take people's hands off so they won't steal? There is no end to this but it is not God's way. God's way is to teach mankind how to use its power wisely and this means getting mankind to reject evil, not preventing people from doing evil by taking away their free will.
Will you have the power to do evil in heaven? If not, will heaven be full of stupid, amputated, castrated, cripples so that they can do only good? What a vision that is...

The idea that you can't have good without bad is nonsense. It's like saying you can't have light without dark. Without dark you may not fully appreciate light but there is certainly no reason everything can't be light and good.
Religion is poison because it asks us to give up our most precious faculty, which is that of reason, and to believe things without evidence. It then asks us to respect this, which it calls faith. - Christopher Hitchens

instantc
Guru
Posts: 2251
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:11 am

Post #64

Post by instantc »

mgb wrote: If God takes away to power to do evil He takes away the power to do good.
But, God is not able to do evil, therefore it seems to me that according to your argument, his actions cannot in fact be good either. In the light of this very argument, it is hard to see how any of God's action could be considered good, just like our actions wouldn't be truly good if we didn't have the chance to choose between good and evil.

mgb
Guru
Posts: 1668
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:21 pm
Location: Europe
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Post #65

Post by mgb »

Peter wrote:
mgb wrote:
no evidence no belief wrote:EXACTLY! We cannot fly around the kitchen, we cannot avoid blinking when somebody claps their hands in front of our face, etc. That takes NOTHING away from our free will. If men had erectile disfunction when trying to rape children it would take NOTHING away from free will, it would NOT be a limit on the person's mind, just on the person's body, like the inability to walk through walls, or keep your knee still when tapped. It would just GREATLY reduce child rape.
If God takes away to power to do evil He takes away the power to do good. Using your argument you could ask why God does not make millions of people stupid so they won't use their brains to exploit others, as many capitalists and clever people do. Perhaps God should make millions of people cripples so they won't bully others or take people's hands off so they won't steal? There is no end to this but it is not God's way. God's way is to teach mankind how to use its power wisely and this means getting mankind to reject evil, not preventing people from doing evil by taking away their free will.
Will you have the power to do evil in heaven? If not, will heaven be full of stupid, amputated, castrated, cripples so that they can do only good? What a vision that is...

The idea that you can't have good without bad is nonsense. It's like saying you can't have light without dark. Without dark you may not fully appreciate light but there is certainly no reason everything can't be light and good.
I don't say heaven will be full of amputated people. I was only extending the logic of the poster's argument and asking if this is what it would lead to. If God should make a person impotent the same argument could be used for God making a person stupid. I don't think God would do any of these things.


Will I have the power to do evil in heaven? Heaven is life made free of evil. Evil comes from the loss of God. I am not saying that you cannot have good without bad. I am saying that people will have evil if they keep choosing it - until they have had enough of it, of hell, of despair. But isn't it better to be wise and choose good without going through hell first? But some WILL go through hell before they learn.

"but there is certainly no reason everything can't be light and good.". Certainly. That is what God is telling us. That is what heaven means. Heaven is not a greedy concept. We exist. We are right to desire to be done with suffering and evil. We are entitled to desire that our existence be made free of these things.

mgb
Guru
Posts: 1668
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:21 pm
Location: Europe
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Post #66

Post by mgb »

instantc wrote:
mgb wrote: If God takes away to power to do evil He takes away the power to do good.
But, God is not able to do evil, therefore it seems to me that according to your argument, his actions cannot in fact be good either. In the light of this very argument, it is hard to see how any of God's action could be considered good, just like our actions wouldn't be truly good if we didn't have the chance to choose between good and evil.
I am not saying it is necessary to do evil to be good. That would be madness. I am saying that to be good we must reject evil. If we had no power, no means we could do neither. Having power means the possibility of evil exists but it also means the possibility of being good exists.

instantc
Guru
Posts: 2251
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:11 am

Post #67

Post by instantc »

mgb wrote: If we had no power, no means we could do neither. Having power means the possibility of evil exists but it also means the possibility of being good exists.
But it is not possible for God to do evil, that is an essential part of Christian theology.

mgb
Guru
Posts: 1668
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:21 pm
Location: Europe
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Post #68

Post by mgb »

instantc wrote:
mgb wrote: If we had no power, no means we could do neither. Having power means the possibility of evil exists but it also means the possibility of being good exists.
But it is not possible for God to do evil, that is an essential part of Christian theology.
Yes but I am not talking about God, I am talking about us human beings. As long as we are imperfect it is possible for us to be evil.

instantc
Guru
Posts: 2251
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:11 am

Post #69

Post by instantc »

mgb wrote:
instantc wrote: But it is not possible for God to do evil, that is an essential part of Christian theology.
Yes but I am not talking about God, I am talking about us human beings. As long as we are imperfect it is possible for us to be evil.
Yes but your argument was that possibility of evil is necessary for the possibility of good. If it not possible for God to do evil, then it is not possible for him to do good either.
Last edited by instantc on Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

mgb
Guru
Posts: 1668
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:21 pm
Location: Europe
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Post #70

Post by mgb »

instantc wrote:
mgb wrote: If God takes away to power to do evil He takes away the power to do good.
But, God is not able to do evil, therefore it seems to me that according to your argument, his actions cannot in fact be good either. In the light of this very argument, it is hard to see how any of God's action could be considered good, just like our actions wouldn't be truly good if we didn't have the chance to choose between good and evil.
The difference between us and God is that we are imperfect. We are fallen. To regain perfection we must reject evil. To be good we must have the means, the power, to be good. But, because we are fallen, we can misuse this power.

Post Reply