Suicide

[Suzy]

I have excellent health and a long way to go yet before I jump of this mortal coil.
But I am going to finish my own life when or if my life is no longer enjoyable, no longer worth living and when I know it will never get better. For instance chronic pain and knowing it will get worse with no hope of relief from drugs. This can happen at any time in life so I have already thought of it. [Yes, I know I’m weird]

I am an atheist so my logic tells me that death itself is O.K. [but not necessarily getting there] I was not here for millions of years before I was born and I was fine with that. It was a breeze!

A point I should mention here is the means used to ‘end it all’ I will keep that to myself for obvious reasons but it will be painless and 100% successful. [Not jumping under a train because I am a coward and also someone has to clear all the mess up]

So to the point and I would like your views on it. What about our love ones. Some say it’s selfish to take your own life because of what you do to them. I say it’s selfish of them if they don’t let you go if you are suffering.
Me being me I have already cleared it with my family [all atheists] so I am good to go.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

On suicide, I figure only the one who attempts it, or is successful at it, knows if it's right or not. The common theist argument that suicide is a "sin" can't be shown to be truth.

On a loved one's suffering?

I'd rely on conversations with that person, doctors or other professionals, and my own judgement. I can't fathom the idea of my son, a Model American, lying in an agonized state for an extended, and unknowable period of time. Per his, a Model American's wishes, I'd probably pull the plug after two weeks, all other conditions having been met. I'd ask that I be the one to do it, to ensure that nobody but me held that ultimate responsibility.

On my laying in such a state? I wouldn't judge my loved ones either way. While they know I don't wish to lay in such a state, I couldn't feel right expecting 'em to make such a decision. I'd be dead on the one hand, and so couldn't judge, to being alive on the other'n, and really, of the two, I find being alive a much preferred state of affairs.

Conclusion?

Leave judgements of suicide to those who are forced to make that decision.

Leave judgements regarding the treatment of loved ones to those innocently involved.

Leave me alive best ya can, but not if I can't puff me up a tater

[bluethread]

Leave judgements regarding the treatment of loved ones to those innocently involved.

Part of the problem is that those cases are rare. Those who know and/or are related to the individual have a vested interest and those who don't have other agendas, ie bed space, financial gain or lose, a social or political agenda, etc. I think there is no real way to ensure a morally "proper" decision. By the same token, it is also very difficult to establish malice.

[JoeyKnothead]

Leave judgements regarding the treatment of loved ones to those innocently involved.

Part of the problem is that those cases are rare. Those who know and/or are related to the individual have a vested interest and those who don't have other agendas, ie bed space, financial gain or lose, a social or political agenda, etc. I think there is no real way to ensure a morally "proper" decision. By the same token, it is also very difficult to establish malice.

I find much to agree with here.

In the absence of established malice then, I prefer not to judge those forced into making such a gut-wrenching decision.

In my mentioned scenario, I had not included those who would do anything other than argue for the individual patient, as opposed to "well, we could use the bed" types. I respect that such conditions may and do occur. I'm reminded of tales of doctors ending the lives of transplant patients at a faster clip than non (anecdotal at best, presented here purely as conversational fodder).

[Wissing]

I think the main issue here is the question itself. If we had a real example, we might be able to get somewhere. But we don't want to offer a cheap justification for somebody who might be looking for an excuse to do the unthinkable. This is a discussion that can't afford hypotheticals or sweeping generalizations - it really should be saved for a case study.

What bothers me is this: why would anyone who is in perfect health be considering this scenario? Why would anyone want to decide this from a position of non-suffering? I would think that it would make for a more informed decision to not decide, until such time as one was actually in a position of endless suffering. Only then could you answer the vital questions. Questions like:
1)Is this suffering really endless and incurable?
2)Does my existence still have meaning, even if I am not personally enjoying it?
3)Which is more important - happiness or survival?
4)Is this suffering greater than the suffering others will endure in my absence?

As for you, Suzy, I really don't mean to offend you. If you want to just agree to disagree that's fine. That's one of the ways things tend to end on here - because there's no way to bring any real experience to the table. It's near impossible to establish soundness with words alone.

In summary, I still consider suicide to be wrong, even from a standpoint of suffering, because happiness is not the goal of life. Life has meaning, and we exist for a reason. A worldview that attempts to justify suicide in general, without even having a real case to study, is a worldview that is asking the wrong questions.

--------

PS: for the record, I never compared suicide to a religious offering:

Suzy:

You use strange terminology. You talk about suicide as ‘offering myself’ Surely this indicates you are deeply religious?

Me:

Now, had I subscribed to your philosophy, I may well have done the "logical" thing at that time and offed myself.

(emphasis mine)

[The Me's]

[Replying to post 1 by Suzy]

My view is that I don't think you'll ever carry it out.

I've been suicidal myself, and I've worked with others who were considering it, and I have a trick for talking them down that so far has 100% success:

I talk to them for 30 minutes.

Yep, that's the trick. Anything they want. Any volume they want. Even if they don't let me talk. It just has to happen for 30 minutes.

All of my, um, "clients", needed nothing more than a moment to consider their decision to die, and all of them agreed that living was better no matter what their life was like.

When it comes down to it, I believe you'll do the same. If you'd really like to be 100% successful and painless, you better be quick about it. The first doubt that enters your mind will convince you to procrastinate--every time you try.

[Suzy]

The above replies are leaving out four things in my humble opinion.

1. Simple logic. Life is unbearable? then I will go.
2. knowing that you will never have to suffer at the end of your life is a nice feeling. Its comforting. [it is to me!] Many people, as they grow older worry about going into a care home to die, being fed painkillers as their loved ones look on at the once recognisable loved one now looking like a skeleton. I choose not to go there. What’s so hard to understand about that!
3. I can kill myself painlessly. Its easy. Don’t believe me? I have described my method to two doctors and they both agreed that it would be the perfect way to go.
4. I will not go this way [if I have to] because I am depressed? I will go because of the reasons I have outlined. I will not need to be ‘talked down' because I will not be ‘up there’ in the first place.

Don’t think I will carry it out? I would be mad not to in the situation I have described.
And if there is one thing Suzy is not its mad!

[The Me's]

[Replying to post 66 by Suzy]

My answer takes all those things into account.

All of the people I worked with found their desperate, unbearable, lives of rejection to be preferable over death.

[Suzy]

[Replying to post 66 by Suzy]

All of the people I worked with found their desperate, unbearable, lives of rejection to be preferable over death.

You have never met anyone like me then have you. And were does ‘rejection’ come into it? Its so obvious that you are talking about a group of people that can’t or wont make an informed or logical decision on this. You say ‘the people you work with’ so what’s that then, potential suicides? Do I sound like someone that is depressed and thinking of killing myself at the moment. My lovely hubby at work, my children playing outside. A lovely house, plenty of money [thank you hubby]. Suzy is bubbling with life.
If you can’t see the point I am making then I give up on you.

[Wissing]

Why would you go to the length of consulting doctors on the best way to commit suicide?

[The Me's]

You have never met anyone like me then have you. And were does ‘rejection’ come into it? Its so obvious that you are talking about a group of people that can’t or wont make an informed or logical decision on this. You say ‘the people you work with’ so what’s that then, potential suicides? Do I sound like someone that is depressed and thinking of killing myself at the moment. My lovely hubby at work, my children playing outside. A lovely house, plenty of money [thank you hubby]. Suzy is bubbling with life.
If you can’t see the point I am making then I give up on you.

I can't say that I've met anyone "like you" because I've never met you.

But I have met people who have considered and attempted suicide, and you seem to have much too cavalier an attitude about it to have ever faced it. I'm only saying that you're kidding yourself. I don't believe for a second that you'll do it.

What does "rejection" have to do with it? I thought it would be pretty obvious. I'm talking about people who are literally at the bottom of society, homeless and impoverished, rejected daily by people who own property where they live, rejected because they smell from never bathing, rejected because they wear the same clothes for weeks until being given new ones, rejected because most of them are either felons or petty criminals, rejected because they have to shoplift just to eat, etc.

THEY have the right to say that living a life of pain is enough to commit suicide. I don't believe that you do because you don't have knowledge of what that level of pain is, nor do you understand the gravity well of hopelessness.

These are the people I was talking about. THEY think that living is preferable to death.

I might be wrong, but I don't think you know what you're talking about.