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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:12 am
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Why don't the Jewish people believe in the New Testament?

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Bs'd

Shalom dear readers,

Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations and corrupting Bible translations.
But now the truth is out. Look here:

http://mountzion.notlong.com

Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.


Eliyahu

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:34 pm
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Thanks, but I've already concluded a very long ago that the Old Testament and especially the first few books called the Torah clearly cannot be the actions and commandments of any God.

I agree that Jesus could not possibly have been the son of that fictitious God sent to be a sacrificial lamb to pay for the sin of mankind.

But the original OT is already absurd on far too many levels to even begin to address in this post.

The is that we now know that death, disease, and natural disasters have always existed on planet earth long before humans ever came upon the scene. So the whole "fall from grace" story of Adam and Eve is clearly false to begin with.

These ancient Jewish myths were nothing but myths to begin with. They were no doubt just a spin-off of Greek mythology taking the idea of Zeus as the "God of Gods" and simply making him into a jealous male-chauvinistic God who supposedly favored the Jews as his chosen people. Rolling Eyes

Back in those days cultures were in competition with each other to produce the ultimate religion that would be the "Top Dog God". These Abrahamic myths by these barbaric Hebrews just happened to be the religion that won that egotistical battle.

What truly surprises me is how anyone can believe that a supposedly all-wise, all-intelligent supreme being could be as utterly unwise and unintelligent as these Hebrew myths demand?

IMHO, not "Supreme God" could be the stupid.

So these myths are clearly nothing more than man-made superstitions, and not even very well-thought out superstitious at that.

But I will agree that Jesus could not have been the demigod son of this previous fictitious God.

On that part, we can agree. Wink

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:16 pm
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Divine Insight wrote:

Thanks, but I've already concluded a very long ago that the Old Testament and especially the first few books called the Torah clearly cannot be the actions and commandments of any God.

I agree that Jesus could not possibly have been the son of that fictitious God sent to be a sacrificial lamb to pay for the sin of mankind.

But the original OT is already absurd on far too many levels to even begin to address in this post.

The is that we now know that death, disease, and natural disasters have always existed on planet earth long before humans ever came upon the scene. So the whole "fall from grace" story of Adam and Eve is clearly false to begin with.


I am glad you think the 'fall from Grace' story of Adam and Eve doesn't make sense. You know that the 'Fall From Grace' is not a Jewish concept, and the Jewish faith does not include that concept in their interpretation of the story of Adam and Eve, don't you?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:57 pm
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Goat wrote:

I am glad you think the 'fall from Grace' story of Adam and Eve doesn't make sense. You know that the 'Fall From Grace' is not a Jewish concept, and the Jewish faith does not include that concept in their interpretation of the story of Adam and Eve, don't you?


So you're claiming that Christianity is even lying about the Old Testament? Think

Do you also denying that the Torah has God commanding the ancient Hebrews to stone sinners to death on his behalf? Do the modern Jews still stone people to death as God had commanded them to do in the Torah? Including heathens and blasphemers?

Do the Jews still make rape victims marry their rapists?

Jesus taught:

Matthew 5:
[38] Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
[39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Where have we heard this said?

Well it was actually written in the Torah:

Exod.21

[24] Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Lev.24

[20] Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

Deut.19

[21] And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.


Do the Jews still seek revenge today like this?

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?

If someone steals your car, do you go and steal their car?

If someone rapes your wife, do you go and rape their wife?

If someone murders your children, do you go and murder their children?

If someone burns your house down, do you go and burn their house down?

Think

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:25 pm
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Divine Insight wrote:

Goat wrote:

I am glad you think the 'fall from Grace' story of Adam and Eve doesn't make sense. You know that the 'Fall From Grace' is not a Jewish concept, and the Jewish faith does not include that concept in their interpretation of the story of Adam and Eve, don't you?


So you're claiming that Christianity is even lying about the Old Testament? Think



They certainly interpret it a lot differently. Often, there are translation discrepancies. They also take things out of context to make it appear to be about JESUS, when it's not.

Quote:

Do you also denying that the Torah has God commanding the ancient Hebrews to stone sinners to death on his behalf? Do the modern Jews still stone people to death as God had commanded them to do in the Torah? Including heathens and blasphemers?


Well, even long before the time of Herod the King, that was interpreted to be a 'lesson via exaggeration'. There were still crimes in that time frame that might be given the death penalty, but at according to some Rabbi's of the 1st century Jerusalum, a Sanhedrin that put even 1 person to death in 30 years was considered bloody. You see, the Jews didn't go by the Torah or the other books alone, but had the oral tradition. Many restrictions were put in place to make sure there were no wrongful deaths, and it made the death penalty practically impossible... not that it was ever taken off the books.
Quote:


the Jews still make rape victims marry their rapists?


Well, there is just this one thing... The word used in that passage is ambiguous, and while it often means rape, it often does not. The girl involved in the situation had the option of saying NO.. so she was not forced to marry him. If she didn't then he was forced to marry her. Now, if it was 'oh, I'll marry you' to get sexual favors.. he is sort of forced to make good his promise.. but if she says no.. well, I believe he had to pay the bride price anyway.


Quote:

Jesus taught:

Matthew 5:
[38] Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
[39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Where have we heard this said?


Exod.21

[24] Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Lev.24

[20] Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

Deut.19

[21] And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.


Do the Jews still seek revenge today like this?

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?

If someone steals your car, do you go and steal their car?

If someone rapes your wife, do you go and rape their wife?

If someone murders your children, do you go and murder their children?

If someone burns your house down, do you go and burn their house down?

Think

[/quote]

Now, the interpretation of that from long before Jesus is that it wasn't takling about vengeance on someone, but rather better interpreted as 'no more than an eye for an eye, no more than a tooth for a tooth'.. in other words, a warning against overly punishing someone. IN addition, rather than physically harming someone, a monetary value was placed on the eye, or the tooth, or whatever, so that we didn't have a whole bunch of people running around eyeless and toothless. That might have been a later interpretation , because Israel had started getting more civilized and sophisticated .. but that was long before the Roman times. Never the less. that was how the oral tradition had started interpreting it.

Having it as a warning against excessive punishment and assigning a monetary value to things is much more practical, wouldn't you say?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:33 pm
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Goat wrote:

Having it as a warning against excessive punishment and assigning a monetary value to things is much more practical, wouldn't you say?


But isn't that the problem with this whole religion whether it's Judaism or Christianity?

We place our own moral ideals onto the Bible via our own personal interpretations of it?

How are we obtaining our moral values from these stories if we are constantly placing our morality onto them?

Also, if someone reads a biblical story and says, "Oh my God! That was a horrible lesson of immorality!"

And then someone else comes along and says, "Here, look at it from this point of view,.... blah blah blah,"

And then the original person says, "Oh yes, that's a much better interpretation".

So where did that moral interpretation come from? The Bible? Or the person who offered an alternative interpretation?

I mean, seriously Goat, if I wanted to I could force my morality onto the Bible by interpreting everything to suit what I considered to be moral, and rejecting, playing down, or pretending that things that don't match my moral values aren't significant (or imagining that I simply can't fully understand them and perhaps God has a better explanation).

But if I do that, what am I doing?

All I'm doing is pushing my morality onto these stories.

I may as well just sit down with a blank piece of paper and a pen and write up my own stories of morality.

What do I need the Bible for if all I'm going to do is push my sense of morality onto it? Think

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:45 pm
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Divine Insight wrote:

Goat wrote:

Having it as a warning against excessive punishment and assigning a monetary value to things is much more practical, wouldn't you say?


But isn't that the problem with this whole religion whether it's Judaism or Christianity?

We place our own moral ideals onto the Bible via our own personal interpretations of it?

How are we obtaining our moral values from these stories if we are constantly placing our morality onto them?

Also, if someone reads a biblical story and says, "Oh my God! That was a horrible lesson of immorality!"

And then someone else comes along and says, "Here, look at it from this point of view,.... blah blah blah,"

And then the original person says, "Oh yes, that's a much better interpretation".

So where did that moral interpretation come from? The Bible? Or the person who offered an alternative interpretation?

I mean, seriously Goat, if I wanted to I could force my morality onto the Bible by interpreting everything to suit what I considered to be moral, and rejecting, playing down, or pretending that things that don't match my moral values aren't significant (or imagining that I simply can't fully understand them and perhaps God has a better explanation).

But if I do that, what am I doing?

All I'm doing is pushing my morality onto these stories.

I may as well just sit down with a blank piece of paper and a pen and write up my own stories of morality.

What do I need the Bible for if all I'm going to do is push my sense of morality onto it? Think



Hey, it has worked for the Jewish faith for 3500 years. The thing about the Jewish faith.. it allowed them to survive as a community for 3500 years. The Torah is a living document.. in other words.. the lessons taught is looked at , and then considered 'how do we apply those lessons in the NOW'.

That makes just as much sense as any other faith.. or ethics, , and as good as some personal new age ideas pulled out of the air.

What the Jewish faith is very does is give a sense of FAMILY and COMMUNITY.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:12 pm
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Goat wrote:

Hey, it has worked for the Jewish faith for 3500 years.


And the Hindu beliefs worked for them for as long.

Even the Greek religions that we all now refer to as "mythology" worked for them.

The religion of the ancient Egyptians worked for them.

The religion of the Mayans worked for them.

Taoism worked for the Chinese as did Confucianism.

Wanka Tanka worked for the American Indians.

Dream Time worked for the Aussies.

Muhammad works for the Mulsims.

Jesus works for the Christians.

The Moon Goddess works for the Wiccans.

Science works for the Atheists.

~~~~

And all of these religions have ONE THING in common.

They are all examples of humans pushing their own morality onto their myths.

With the exception of the atheists, of course. They have no myths. They simply accept personal responsibility for their own subjective morality in spite of the fact that science can't even prove that they have any such thing as personal responsibility. Wink

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:14 pm
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Divine Insight wrote:

Goat wrote:

Hey, it has worked for the Jewish faith for 3500 years.


And the Hindu beliefs worked for them for as long.

Even the Greek religions that we all now refer to as "mythology" worked for them.

The religion of the ancient Egyptians worked for them.

The religion of the Mayans worked for them.

Taoism worked for the Chinese as did Confucianism.

Wanka Tanka worked for the American Indians.

Dream Time worked for the Aussies.

Muhammad works for the Mulsims.

Jesus works for the Christians.

The Moon Goddess works for the Wiccans.

Science works for the Atheists.

~~~~

And all of these religions have ONE THING in common.

They are all examples of humans pushing their own morality onto their myths.

With the exception of the atheists, of course. They have no myths. They simply accept personal responsibility for their own subjective morality in spite of the fact that science can't even prove that they have any such thing as personal responsibility. Wink



That's right..one thing about Judaism, it is not an 'exclusive religion'. The Jewish faith is how the Jewish people connect with the divine. They don't claim it's the only way, and that other people have their own way.

Now, when it comes to your claims about atheists.. well.. you do have your blind spot there.. you make assumptions that are not shown to be true.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:49 pm
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Goat wrote:

That's right..one thing about Judaism, it is not an 'exclusive religion'. The Jewish faith is how the Jewish people connect with the divine. They don't claim it's the only way, and that other people have their own way.


How can you claim that Judaism isn't an 'exclusive religion'?

Don't the Jews also go by the Ten Commandments? Doesn't this God proclaim that he is a jealous God and that thou shalt have no other Gods before him?

How do you interpret this to not be exclusive?

Do you think that there are multiple Gods for other people other than Jews?

Do you think that the gods that other people worship are actually the same God just interacting with different cultures in different ways? If so, why isn't he demanding exclusivity from them and proclaiming to them that he is a jealous God?

Why aren't all religions in the world then based on this same jealous God?

Doesn't the Jewish doctrine itself proclaim that God has a very special relationship with the Jews (actually with the Israelites) and that they are his chosen people?

How can this not be seen as an exclusive religion with all of this type of rhetoric?

Isn't this God even supposed to send a messiah to Israel specifically and from there create peace with all nations?

It seems to me that Judaism is totally focused on the nation of Israel. How can you say that this isn't an exclusive religion to the nation of Israel?

Even the Christians have Jesus coming back to Jerusalem to remarry his Bride of Israel.

To be perfectly honest Goat, the more I talk about these religions the more they sound as absurd as Greek Mythology to me.

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