Isaiah 7 has no bearing on the messiah or on a virgin birth

[Eliyahu]

Bs'd

The prophecy of Isaiah 7:

1: In the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, son of Uzzi'ah, king of Judah, Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah the king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but they could not conquer it. 2: When the house of David was told, "Syria is in league with E'phraim," his heart and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. 3: And the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go forth to meet Ahaz, you and She'ar-jash'ub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field, 4: and say to him, `Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, at the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria and the son of Remali'ah. 5: Because Syria, with E'phraim and the son of Remali'ah, has devised evil against you, saying, 6: "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it, and let us conquer it for ourselves, and set up the son of Ta'be-el as king in the midst of it," 7: thus says the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass.
8: For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin. (Within sixty-five years E'phraim will be broken to pieces so that it will no longer be a people.) 9: And the head of E'phraim is Sama'ria, and the head of Sama'ria is the son of Remali'ah. If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established.'" 10: Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz,
11: "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." 12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test." 13: And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

We see here in Isaiah 7, that king Achaz, the king of Judah, is afraid of two neighboring kings.
It is important to know that after the death of king Solomo the kingdom of Israel split up into two parts; into the kingdom of Judah, and the kingdom of Israel.
The kingdom om Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and a part of the Levites. The kingdom of Israel was made up of the other ten tribes.
Achaz was king over Judah, and in this prophecy the king of Israel is Pekah, the son of Remaliah.
And Pekah had made a covenant with the king of Syria, called Resin, to attack together the kingdom of Judah.
This news caused king Achaz considerable stress, because he had a dark suspicion that things could very well turn out not so very rosy for him.
Therefore God sent Isaiah to Achaz, in order to tell him that things would work out just fine for him. God tells Achaz that he will give him a sign. Here is the sign: "14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman is pregnant and is giving birth to a son, and she called his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

God says that before the child of the young woman who is pregnant will grow up, the land of the two kings, Resin of Syria, and Pekah of Israel, will be deserted, that is devoid of people. Those two nations will be led into exile.
So this is a sign for king Achaz, who lived about 700 years before JC.

And the Bible tells us that this prophecy came true: "27: In the fifty-second year of Azari'ah king of Judah Pekah the son of Remali'ah began to reign over Israel in Sama'ria, and reigned twenty years. 28: And he did what was evil in the sight of the LORD; he did not depart from the sins of Jerobo'am the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin. 29: In the days of Pekah king of Israel Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria came and captured I'jon, A'bel-beth-ma'acah, Jan-o'ah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naph'tali; and he carried the people captive to Assyria. 30: Then Hoshe'a the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remali'ah, and struck him down, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzzi'ah."
II Kings 15.

We see here that the population of Israel indeed went into exile, and that the land of king Pekah was deserted.

And here is what happened to Resin, the king of Syria:
"6: At that time the king of Edom recovered Elath for Edom, and drove the men of Judah from Elath; and the E'domites came to Elath, where they dwell to this day. 7: So Ahaz sent messengers to Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria, saying, "I am your servant and your son. Come up, and rescue me from the hand of the king of Syria and from the hand of the king of Israel, who are attacking me." 8: Ahaz also took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD and in the treasures of the king's house, and sent a present to the king of Assyria. 9: And the king of Assyria hearkened to him; the king of Assyria marched up against Damascus, and took it, carrying its people captive to Kir, and he killed Rezin."
II Kings 16.

So here we see that also the inhabitants of the land of King Resin went into exile, and also his land was deserted, in the days of Achaz.

So God gave a sign to Achaz.

In the days of Achaz.

About 700 years before JC.

So this prophecy has no bearing what so ever on the messiah, and NOWHERE in this prophecy is spoken about a virgin.

These are only misconceptions of the NT.

However, the NT brings this prophecy to Achaz as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 1 "21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel".

So what the NT does here, is taking a text which does not speak about the messiah, ripping it out of context, mistranslating it, (is says "young woman", and not "virgin") and then presenting it to us as a messianic prophecy.

So one of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.




In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

[Wootah]

You refuse to answer ANY of my pertinent and on-point questions; that's all I need to know, and all that anyone else needs to know. "Obfuscation"? Do you even know what that MEANS?

Lying about what I know or don't know only makes you look silly.

Moderator Comment

Please review the Rules.

Please don't accuse others of obfuscation or lying. That is how debates escalate from debates to arguments.


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[The Me's]

No, here is an example. I tell the mayor of my city that Adonai says that we are going to have a boom in business. I then say, as a sign of that, this woman here is going to give birth to a son and will name him Prosperity, then when that child is born, I call him Huge-Profits-For-Investors. This puts me on record as one who is speaking for Adonai and that child can be used against me in a trial for blasphemy.

Great!

Now all you have to do is find a baby born in the 8th century BC, in Jerusalem, whose name was "Immanuel". If you can't find one, you can't very well make the claim that THAT is what Isaiah meant, or Isaiah himself would have pointed the baby out.

(It would be more reasonable to assume that you're forcing a manufactured argument into Isaiah's mouth to avoid a more obvious interpretation.)

[Goat]

No, here is an example. I tell the mayor of my city that Adonai says that we are going to have a boom in business. I then say, as a sign of that, this woman here is going to give birth to a son and will name him Prosperity, then when that child is born, I call him Huge-Profits-For-Investors. This puts me on record as one who is speaking for Adonai and that child can be used against me in a trial for blasphemy.

Great!

Now all you have to do is find a baby born in the 8th century BC, in Jerusalem, whose name was "Immanuel". If you can't find one, you can't very well make the claim that THAT is what Isaiah meant, or Isaiah himself would have pointed the baby out.

(It would be more reasonable to assume that you're forcing a manufactured argument into Isaiah's mouth to avoid a more obvious interpretation.)

Gramps was that old, and his name was Immanuel. Guess that makes him God.

[Eliyahu]

Unfortunately, if a "young woman" has a baby, that's not a sign; it's an every-day occurrence. Uzziah would have seen it happen a hundred times before anything else happened. (How was he supposed to know which one of them was THE sign?)

Bs'd

I agree, a young woman having a baby is not a sign.

But neither is a virgin giving birth. Because how did the onlookers know that the woman was a virgin? Did the whole town come to look between her legs when she was about to give birth in order to see whether or not she was a virgin?

Or did they have to take her word for it?

On top of that, in Isaiah 7 is not at all spoken about a virgin. There are no virgin births in the Tanach.

So what was the sign? This was the sign: "For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted." That was the sign, that within say 13 years, the land of the two kings for which Achaz was afraid, would be totally deserted, the populations being led into exile.

The boy being born to the young woman was there only to give a time frame in which the sign would occur.

Jews in the Roman Period believed that this passage referred to a virgin birth because a young woman canNOT have a baby out of wedlock by God's command. She would be subject to...what punishment, again?

No punishment. And no Jew believed that this passage speaks about a virgin, because it is not written there.

And of course, the young woman spoken about by Isaiah was of course married.

[Eliyahu]

I assume that you're saying Isaiah predicted "a young woman shall conceive", and it's not about a virgin birth at all.

Bs'd

No, it is not about a virgin, and more, it isn't even a prediction. Isaiah was just stating a fact. What he said is: "Behold, the young woman IS pregnant and she IS GIVING BIRTH to a son".

Of course,

[Eliyahu]

I assume that you're saying Isaiah predicted "a young woman shall conceive", and it's not about a virgin birth at all.

Bs'd

No, it is not about a virgin, and more, it isn't even a prediction. Isaiah was just stating a fact. What he said is: "Behold, the young woman IS pregnant and she IS GIVING BIRTH to a son".

Of course, you'll have a hard time finding that in a Christian Bible translation, because that doesn't fit the Christian dogma. But some admit it:

Common English Bible "Therefore, the Lord will give you a sign. The young woman is pregnant and is about to give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Contemporary English Version "But the Lord will still give you proof. A virgin is pregnant; she will have a son and will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Easy-to-Read Version "The young woman is pregnant and will give birth to a son. She will name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Good News Translation "Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman[a] who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Lexham English Bible "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’"
Partially correct in the tenses.

New Revised Standard Version " Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Young's Literal Translation "Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, "
Fully correct in the tenses.

[Eliyahu]

I assume that you're saying Isaiah predicted "a young woman shall conceive", and it's not about a virgin birth at all.

Bs'd

No, it is not about a virgin, and more, it isn't even a prediction. Isaiah was just stating a fact. What he said is: "Behold, the young woman IS pregnant and she IS GIVING BIRTH to a son".

Of course, you'll have a hard time finding that in a Christian Bible translation, because that doesn't fit the Christian dogma. But some admit it:

Common English Bible "Therefore, the Lord will give you a sign. The young woman is pregnant and is about to give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Contemporary English Version "But the Lord will still give you proof. A virgin is pregnant; she will have a son and will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Easy-to-Read Version "The young woman is pregnant and will give birth to a son. She will name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Good News Translation "Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Lexham English Bible "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’"
Partially correct in the tenses.

New Revised Standard Version " Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Young's Literal Translation "Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son,"
Fully correct in the tenses.
[/u][/i]

[Eliyahu]

I assume that you're saying Isaiah predicted "a young woman shall conceive", and it's not about a virgin birth at all.

Bs'd

No, it is not about a virgin, and more, it isn't even a prediction. Isaiah was just stating a fact. What he said is: "Behold, the young woman IS pregnant and she IS GIVING BIRTH to a son".

Of course, you'll have a hard time finding that in a Christian Bible translation, because that doesn't fit the Christian dogma. But some admit it:

Common English Bible "Therefore, the Lord will give you a sign. The young woman is pregnant and is about to give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Contemporary English Version "But the Lord will still give you proof. A virgin is pregnant; she will have a son and will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Easy-to-Read Version "The young woman is pregnant and will give birth to a son. She will name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Good News Translation "Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Lexham English Bible "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’"
Partially correct in the tenses.

New Revised Standard Version " Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Young's Literal Translation "Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son,"
Fully correct in the tenses.

[Eliyahu]

I assume that you're saying Isaiah predicted "a young woman shall conceive", and it's not about a virgin birth at all.

Bs'd

No, it is not about a virgin, and more, it isn't even a prediction. Isaiah was just stating a fact. What he said is: "Behold, the young woman IS pregnant and she IS GIVING BIRTH to a son".

Of course, you'll have a hard time finding that in a Christian Bible translation, because that doesn't fit the Christian dogma. But some admit it:

Common English Bible "Therefore, the Lord will give you a sign. The young woman is pregnant and is about to give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Contemporary English Version "But the Lord will still give you proof. A virgin is pregnant; she will have a son and will name him Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Easy-to-Read Version "The young woman is pregnant and will give birth to a son. She will name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Good News Translation "Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel."
Partially correct in the tenses.

Lexham English Bible "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’"
Partially correct in the tenses.

New Revised Standard Version " Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"
Partially correct in the tenses.

Young's Literal Translation "Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son,"
Fully correct in the tenses.

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 25 by Eliyahu]

The report button seems to be missing, but I'd like to point this out publicly;

Many of your posts appear, word-for-word, on forums all over the Net. Not only here, but on theologyonline, CARM, topix, truthsmack, biblegateway, the Chabad forum, and many more. Your "echad" OP was even posted HERE in October of 2006.

Spam is not allowed on this forum, and according to my understanding of that rule, your posts qualify.

Some might suppose that I would support you because you are a fellow Jew. Though I agree with much (though not all) of what you say, that does not matter in this instance. You are obligated to follow the rules of this forum.

Just an observation. I do wonder what happened to the report button.