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TG123
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:30 pm  Question about the Quran Reply with quote

Salaam Alaikum,

This is a question to the Muslim posters on the forum. Can you please tell me what significance the Quran has for you in your faith? I know Islam teaches that God revealed it directly through the ArchAngel Gabriel to Muhammad.

Do you believe that it is 100% true and without any mistakes? I know that the Quran teaches there are no contradictions in it, would the same apply to other kinds of errors (ie scientific, historical, theological, etc)?

4:82
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

If a mistake was found in the Quran that was not a contradiction, would it still be in your opinion the word of God?


Shukran wa Allahma3k. Ramadan Mubarak aydan.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 61: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:44 pm
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steps wrote:

I hope you will be able to find a better answer .

So in my next test from your book about prophet Mohammad , I hope you will find good justifications . or you will be unqualified to speak about Quran until you prove your ability to speak about your book .

MY Respect . Angel

Salaam Alaikum.

I answered your post, and debunked your "proof" by showing you that Isaiah 21:13-17 does not mention a prophet. The burden of proof is on you to show any mention of a prophet in that verse, much less of Muhammad. I also showed you how "Hashem" in the text is most clearly a reference to God, not Muhammad's grandfather.

I have responded to your post about the Bible, will you respond to mine about the Quran (both the verses about the "barrier" between the waters, and my rebutall to your response about the Thamud verses)?

Respect returned.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 62: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:47 pm
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Do you want me to analyze your response , to show you how funny it was .

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 63: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:27 pm
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steps wrote:

Do you want me to analyze your response , to show you how funny it was .

Yes, that would be the general idea. I respond to what you write, you respond to what I write. That is how debates work. Smile

Please respond not only to my response regarding the Isaiah verse, but also Madain Saleh, and the verses about alleged barrier between salty and non-salty water.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 64: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:26 pm
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The prophecy speaks about an event will happen for this man :
The religious signs :
1- A clear prophecy and glad tidings .
2- The Lord is the speaker .
The historical signs :
1- The immigration event will became a calendar and will chronicled what is after
2- An important battle will happen after one year from the immigration .
The geographical signs :
1- It Happened in the land of Arabia .
2- The prophecy appointed places : [ Tema , Dedans , and land of Kedar ]
The events :
1- The immigration and the escaping [ Prophet Mohammad immigration ]
2- The defeat of the Kedar and the disappearance of his glory after one year from the immigration in the first battle [ the battle of Badr ]

All of this happened for prophet Mohammad ,

So what you will have to do ?

You must prove that someone lived in the Arabian land escaped from the sons of Kedar , then after one year this man and his followers defeated the sons of Kedar . and he ruled the Arabian land . and his immigration became a great event for the followers of this man . else than prophet Mohammad

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 65: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:23 pm
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About Madain Saleh : ةmaybe I told you to add pictures including the source .

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 66: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:01 pm
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steps wrote:

The prophecy speaks about an event will happen for this man :

Only neither "this man" or any other man- other than the Arabians who are defeated- are mentioned in Isaiah 21:13-17.

Here is the passage again:

Isa Ch 21 : 13 -17

( The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim. The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled. For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war. For thus hath the LORD said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail: And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken it. )

Where do you see a prophet mentioned in this passage?

steps wrote:

The religious signs :
1- A clear prophecy and glad tidings .
2- The Lord is the speaker .

Yes.
steps wrote:

The historical signs :
1- The immigration event will became a calendar and will chronicled what is after

Isaiah 21:13-17 does not say this.
steps wrote:

2- An important battle will happen after one year from the immigration .

It does say this. It says nothing about a prophet winning this battle, it only speaks of the Arabians being defeated.
steps wrote:

The geographical signs :
1- It Happened in the land of Arabia .

The battle did in Isaiah 21:13-17. So did many other battles throughout history.
steps wrote:

2- The prophecy appointed places : [ Tema , Dedans , and land of Kedar ]

Yes.
steps wrote:

The events :
1- The immigration and the escaping [ Prophet Mohammad immigration ]

The passage says nothing about a prophet fleeing from war, like Muhammad did.
steps wrote:

2- The defeat of the Kedar and the disappearance of his glory after one year from the immigration in the first battle [ the battle of Badr ]

The difference is that according to your faith, Muhammad defeated "Kedar". Isaiah 21:13-17 says nothing about the people fleeing from war playing any role in defeating the Kedarites. It also does not say that the Kedarites oppressed them.

You are adding events to the passage that are not there.
steps wrote:

All of this happened for prophet Mohammad ,

According to your faith, Muhammad was oppressed by the Meccans and had to flee. He later fought and defeated them.
Isaiah 21:13-17 does not say who was chased out, and by whom. It also does not say that the Kedarites played any role in chasing out these people, or that these people were the ones who destroyed them.

Also, did Muhammad and his men lodge in an Arabian forest?
steps wrote:

So what you will have to do ?

You must prove that someone lived in the Arabian land escaped from the sons of Kedar , then after one year this man and his followers defeated the sons of Kedar . and he ruled the Arabian land . and his immigration became a great event for the followers of this man . else than prophet Mohammad

You need to prove that Isaiah 21:13-17 states that the Kedarites were the ones who oppressed the people and drove them out. You need to show that these people were the ones who overthrew them, according to this passage.

You obviously can't, since the passage does not say these things. So therefore, you cannot demonstrate that it is about Muhammad.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 67: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:05 pm
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steps wrote:

About Madain Saleh : ةmaybe I told you to add pictures including the source .

You want pictures? I don't know how to paste pictures on this site (if someone who does know is reading this, please feel free to show me), but I will give you a link to a site with some great pictures of these structures... as well as an explanation of who made them.

http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 68: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:50 am
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TG123 wrote:

steps wrote:

The prophecy speaks about an event will happen for this man :

Only neither "this man" or any other man- other than the Arabians who are defeated- are mentioned in Isaiah 21:13-17.

Here is the passage again:

Isa Ch 21 : 13 -17

( The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim. The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled. For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war. For thus hath the LORD said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail: And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken it. )

Where do you see a prophet mentioned in this passage?


I said the prophecy about the event [ the immigration ] . and this event happened in the land of Arab for prophet Mohammad only .

steps wrote:

The historical signs :
1- The immigration event will became a calendar and will chronicled what is after

TG123 wrote:
Isaiah 21:13-17 does not say this.


Yes , but if you look at the statement [Within a year, according to the years of an hireling ] a year after the immigration

steps wrote:

2- An important battle will happen after one year from the immigration .

TG123 wrote:
It does say this. It says nothing about a prophet winning this battle, it only speaks of the Arabians being defeated.


the battle happened after the immigration

steps wrote:

The geographical signs :
1- It Happened in the land of Arabia .


TG123 wrote:
The battle did in Isaiah 21:13-17. So did many other battles throughout history.


Maybe Isaiah did not know his sayings . or for sure you do not know your book : Isaiah was speaking about specific case in specific place in specific time for specific events .

the disaster in the minds of the Christians , and this is why they made Jesus a god without any proves . because they are cutting the phrases from its context


steps wrote:

The events :
1- The immigration and the escaping [ Prophet Mohammad immigration ]

The passage says nothing about a prophet fleeing from war, like Muhammad did.
steps wrote:

2- The defeat of the Kedar and the disappearance of his glory after one year from the immigration in the first battle [ the battle of Badr ]

TG123 wrote:

The difference is that according to your faith, Muhammad defeated "Kedar". Isaiah 21:13-17 says nothing about the people fleeing from war playing any role in defeating the Kedarites. It also does not say that the Kedarites oppressed them.

You are adding events to the passage that are not there.


Who said the people fleeing from the war … from where you get this idea . the war happened after the immigration .
The prophet and his companions immigrated because Allah commanded them to immigrate from the land of Kedar " Makkah = Baca " to Ythreb .

And during the night of immigration , the unbelievers from the sons kedar [ different tribes ] gathered in front of the house of Prophet Mohammad , each one was carrying his sword to kill the prophet . and the prophecy says : [ For they fled from the swords ]

The Christians and the Jews do not know the subject of the prophecy , therefore their commentaries about it were very weak only [ guess and fake ] .

But the Muslims knew it happened for prophet Mohammad , and prophet Mohammad only . no one else .

He was the immigrant , he was the victor and defeated the unbelievers from the sons kedar . he is the one that God spoke about him in the prophecy .


steps wrote:

All of this happened for prophet Mohammad ,

TG123 wrote:
According to your faith, Muhammad was oppressed by the Meccans and had to flee. He later fought and defeated them.
Isaiah 21:13-17 does not say who was chased out, and by whom. It also does not say that the Kedarites played any role in chasing out these people, or that these people were the ones who destroyed them.


By the immigrant and his followers . you do not have to be genius to know this by yourself .
If it was not a great event , and very important occasion then why God speak about it ?
The event of the immigration announced the beginning of Islamic country . the prophet and his companions have their own independent country

So let us be logical , and we will not use the minds of Christians about this case :
1- The inspiration from the heavens came to Isaiah on earth , to inspire him that all the glory of Kedar shall fail .
What is the target from the inspiration ? Just to say the glory of Kedar shall fail .
And what is the benefit for the Christians and the Jews ? they have no relation with people of Kedar .
And why the inspiration speak about Tema , and a man will escape and they should help him and support him by water and food ?
He can inspire Isaiah the glory of Kedar shall fial , without mentioning any man or any other tribe .
Also the inspiration talked about the fail of Kedar , but who was the victor ?
And why the god talked since the inspiration was meaningless ?
Or God inspired Isaiah just to inform mankind that he knows everything ?


TG123 wrote:

Also, did Muhammad and his men lodge in an Arabian forest?


New International Version
A prophecy against Arabia: You caravans of Dedanites, who camp in the thickets of Arabia,

New Living Translation
This message came to me concerning Arabia: O caravans from Dedan, hide in the deserts of Arabia.

English Standard Version
The oracle concerning Arabia. In the thickets in Arabia you will lodge, O caravans of Dedanites.

New American Standard Bible
The oracle about Arabia. In the thickets of Arabia you must spend the night, O caravans of Dedanites.

King James Bible
The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
An oracle against Arabia: In the desert brush you will camp for the night, you caravans of Dedanites.

International Standard Version
A message concerning Arabia. "You will camp in the thickets in Arabia, you caravans of the Dedanites.

NET Bible
Here is a message about Arabia: In the thicket of Arabia you spend the night, you Dedanite caravans.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is the divine revelation about Arabia. You caravan of travelers from the people of Dedan will spend the night in the forest of Arabia.

Jubilee Bible 2000
The burden upon Arabia. In the forest ye shall pass the night in Arabia, O ye walkers of Dedanim.

King James 2000 Bible
The burden concerning Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall you lodge, O you traveling companies of Dedanites.

American King James Version
The burden on Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall you lodge, O you traveling companies of Dedanim.

American Standard Version
The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye caravans of Dedanites.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The burden in Arabia. In the forest at evening you shall sleep, in the paths of Dedanim.

Darby Bible Translation
The burden against Arabia. In the forest of Arabia shall ye lodge, ye caravans of Dedanites.

English Revised Version
The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanites.

Webster's Bible Translation
The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye traveling companies of Dedanim.

World English Bible
The burden on Arabia. In the forest in Arabia you will lodge, you caravans of Dedanites.

Young's Literal Translation
The burden on Arabia. In a forest in Arabia ye lodge, O travellers of Dedanim.

This is your book and you must show us which copy is correct .
Also in the Arabic bible :

Google translation : The word " الوعر " does not mean forest , it means Rugged .

steps wrote:

So what you will have to do ?

You must prove that someone lived in the Arabian land escaped from the sons of Kedar , then after one year this man and his followers defeated the sons of Kedar . and he ruled the Arabian land . and his immigration became a great event for the followers of this man . else than prophet Mohammad


TG123 wrote:
You need to prove that Isaiah 21:13-17 states that the Kedarites were the ones who oppressed the people and drove them out. You need to show that these people were the ones who overthrew them, according to this passage.


The last verse says :

17 and the residue of the number of the archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished; for HaShem, the G-d of Israel, hath spoken it.

For Hashem : means for prophet Mohammad .
The prophet's lineage : Muhammad son of Abd Allah son of Abd al-Muttalib son of Hashim son of Abd Manaf .
And by this name the meaning of the prophecy complete :
Because it shows the victorious , and the defeated .

and because the Christians and the Jews do not know Hashem , they started to their favorite hobby [ deleting and changing ] .

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 69: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:54 pm
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[quote="steps"]
TG123 wrote:

steps wrote:

The prophecy speaks about an event will happen for this man :

Only neither "this man" or any other man- other than the Arabians who are defeated- are mentioned in Isaiah 21:13-17.

Here is the passage again:

Isa Ch 21 : 13 -17

( The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim. The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled. For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war. For thus hath the LORD said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail: And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken it. )

Where do you see a prophet mentioned in this passage?

steps wrote:

I said the prophecy about the event [ the immigration ] . and this event happened in the land of Arab for prophet Mohammad only .

How do you know it refers to the migration of Muhammad? Do you believe there were no other battles or migrations in that region between Isaiah and Muhammad?

steps wrote:

The historical signs :
1- The immigration event will became a calendar and will chronicled what is after

TG123 wrote:
Isaiah 21:13-17 does not say this.

steps wrote:

Yes , but if you look at the statement [Within a year, according to the years of an hireling ] a year after the immigration

It says nothing about a calendar, like you earlier alleged.

steps wrote:

2- An important battle will happen after one year from the immigration .

TG123 wrote:
It does say this. It says nothing about a prophet winning this battle, it only speaks of the Arabians being defeated.

steps wrote:

the battle happened after the immigration

True. But it doesn't say after the immigration of whom, or who fought the battle against who. This passage can be a reference to anything.

steps wrote:

The geographical signs :
1- It Happened in the land of Arabia .


TG123 wrote:
The battle did in Isaiah 21:13-17. So did many other battles throughout history.

steps wrote:

Maybe Isaiah did not know his sayings . or for sure you do not know your book : Isaiah was speaking about specific case in specific place in specific time for specific events .

He was, but you have not presented any evidence whatsoever this is a reference to a prophet, much less Muhammad.
steps wrote:

the disaster in the minds of the Christians , and this is why they made Jesus a god without any proves . because they are cutting the phrases from its context

The Bible clearly says Jesus is God.

steps wrote:

The events :
1- The immigration and the escaping [ Prophet Mohammad immigration ]

The passage says nothing about a prophet fleeing from war, like Muhammad did.
steps wrote:

2- The defeat of the Kedar and the disappearance of his glory after one year from the immigration in the first battle [ the battle of Badr ]

TG123 wrote:

The difference is that according to your faith, Muhammad defeated "Kedar". Isaiah 21:13-17 says nothing about the people fleeing from war playing any role in defeating the Kedarites. It also does not say that the Kedarites oppressed them.

You are adding events to the passage that are not there.

steps wrote:

Who said the people fleeing from the war … from where you get this idea . the war happened after the immigration .

The passage says the people fled from war.

Isa Ch 21 : 13 -17

( The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim. The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled. For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war. For thus hath the LORD said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail: And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken it. )

Did Muhammad flee from war?
steps wrote:

The prophet and his companions immigrated because Allah commanded them to immigrate from the land of Kedar " Makkah = Baca " to Ythreb .

A prophet is not mentioned in Isaiah 21:13-17.
steps wrote:

And during the night of immigration , the unbelievers from the sons kedar [ different tribes ] gathered in front of the house of Prophet Mohammad , each one was carrying his sword to kill the prophet . and the prophecy says : [ For they fled from the swords ]

And the passage continues, stating:

... and from the grieviousness of war.

Did Muhammad flee from war?
steps wrote:

The Christians and the Jews do not know the subject of the prophecy , therefore their commentaries about it were very weak only [ guess and fake ] .

You haven't even read the passage properly to begin with.
steps wrote:

But the Muslims knew it happened for prophet Mohammad , and prophet Mohammad only . no one else .

Neither Muhammad or a prophet is mentioned in the passage. Did Muhammad flee from war?
steps wrote:

He was the immigrant , he was the victor and defeated the unbelievers from the sons kedar . he is the one that God spoke about him in the prophecy .

Isaiah 21:13-17 does not say the people who fled from war defeated the Kedarites.

steps wrote:

All of this happened for prophet Mohammad ,

TG123 wrote:
According to your faith, Muhammad was oppressed by the Meccans and had to flee. He later fought and defeated them.
Isaiah 21:13-17 does not say who was chased out, and by whom. It also does not say that the Kedarites played any role in chasing out these people, or that these people were the ones who destroyed them.

steps wrote:

By the immigrant and his followers . you do not have to be genius to know this by yourself .

Where is there mention of an immigrant and his followers?
steps wrote:

If it was not a great event , and very important occasion then why God speak about it ?

God speaks about many events.
steps wrote:

The event of the immigration announced the beginning of Islamic country . the prophet and his companions have their own independent country

According to your faith, yes. But none of this prophesied in Isaiah.
steps wrote:

So let us be logical , and we will not use the minds of Christians about this case :
1- The inspiration from the heavens came to Isaiah on earth , to inspire him that all the glory of Kedar shall fail .

Yes.
steps wrote:

What is the target from the inspiration ? Just to say the glory of Kedar shall fail .
And what is the benefit for the Christians and the Jews ? they have no relation with people of Kedar .

Yes.
steps wrote:

And why the inspiration speak about Tema , and a man will escape and they should help him and support him by water and food ?

The passage says that traveling companies of Dedanim will be brought water. It says nothing about a man and his followers.
steps wrote:

He can inspire Isaiah the glory of Kedar shall fial , without mentioning any man or any other tribe .

No man or tribe is mentioned, correct. Not even a prophet. So you have no reason to assume this was Muhammad.
steps wrote:

Also the inspiration talked about the fail of Kedar , but who was the victor ?

The passage does not state who defeated the people of Kedar.
steps wrote:

And why the god talked since the inspiration was meaningless ?

Who said it was meaningless? I didn't.
steps wrote:

Or God inspired Isaiah just to inform mankind that he knows everything ?

Isaiah was a prophet so yes, he did teach that God knows everything.

TG123 wrote:

Also, did Muhammad and his men lodge in an Arabian forest?

steps wrote:

New International Version
A prophecy against Arabia: You caravans of Dedanites, who camp in the thickets of Arabia,

New Living Translation
This message came to me concerning Arabia: O caravans from Dedan, hide in the deserts of Arabia.

English Standard Version
The oracle concerning Arabia. In the thickets in Arabia you will lodge, O caravans of Dedanites.

New American Standard Bible
The oracle about Arabia. In the thickets of Arabia you must spend the night, O caravans of Dedanites.

King James Bible
The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
An oracle against Arabia: In the desert brush you will camp for the night, you caravans of Dedanites.

International Standard Version
A message concerning Arabia. "You will camp in the thickets in Arabia, you caravans of the Dedanites.

NET Bible
Here is a message about Arabia: In the thicket of Arabia you spend the night, you Dedanite caravans.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is the divine revelation about Arabia. You caravan of travelers from the people of Dedan will spend the night in the forest of Arabia.

Jubilee Bible 2000
The burden upon Arabia. In the forest ye shall pass the night in Arabia, O ye walkers of Dedanim.

King James 2000 Bible
The burden concerning Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall you lodge, O you traveling companies of Dedanites.

American King James Version
The burden on Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall you lodge, O you traveling companies of Dedanim.

American Standard Version
The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye caravans of Dedanites.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The burden in Arabia. In the forest at evening you shall sleep, in the paths of Dedanim.

Darby Bible Translation
The burden against Arabia. In the forest of Arabia shall ye lodge, ye caravans of Dedanites.

English Revised Version
The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanites.

Webster's Bible Translation
The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye traveling companies of Dedanim.

World English Bible
The burden on Arabia. In the forest in Arabia you will lodge, you caravans of Dedanites.

Young's Literal Translation
The burden on Arabia. In a forest in Arabia ye lodge, O travellers of Dedanim.

This is your book and you must show us which copy is correct .
Also in the Arabic bible :

Google translation : The word " الوعر " does not mean forest , it means Rugged .

The passage was written originally in Hebrew, not Arabic. The word is "thicket".
http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/baiyaar_3293.htm

Did Muhammad and his men camp in a thicket?

steps wrote:

So what you will have to do ?

You must prove that someone lived in the Arabian land escaped from the sons of Kedar , then after one year this man and his followers defeated the sons of Kedar . and he ruled the Arabian land . and his immigration became a great event for the followers of this man . else than prophet Mohammad


TG123 wrote:
You need to prove that Isaiah 21:13-17 states that the Kedarites were the ones who oppressed the people and drove them out. You need to show that these people were the ones who overthrew them, according to this passage.

steps wrote:

The last verse says :

17 and the residue of the number of the archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished; for HaShem, the G-d of Israel, hath spoken it.

It says the men of Kedar will be diminished. It doesn't say by who. The passage says nothing about the refugees being the ones who fought the Kedarites.
steps wrote:

For Hashem : means for prophet Mohammad .
The prophet's lineage : Muhammad son of Abd Allah son of Abd al-Muttalib son of Hashim son of Abd Manaf .
And by this name the meaning of the prophecy complete :
Because it shows the victorious , and the defeated .

and because the Christians and the Jews do not know Hashem , they started to their favorite hobby [ deleting and changing ] .


The passage clearly says "Hashem, the God of Israel". If you are going to use this passage as "proof" of Muhammad's prophecy, then you need to state what it actually says. If you claim Hashem means Muhammad, you are stating he is the God of Israel. BTW you earlier claimed he was Muhammad's grandfather.

Clearly, no matter how much you try to twist it, Isaiah 21:13-17 is not about Muhammad or his victory over the Meccans.

Back to our discussion on Madain Saleh, can you show any historical or archaeological evidence that the buildings were built in the time of Moses, rather than as history and archaeology shows, by the Nabataeans?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 70: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:05 pm
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TG123 wrote:
Only neither "this man" or any other man- other than the Arabians who are defeated- are mentioned in Isaiah 21:13-17.
Where do you see a prophet mentioned in this passage?

It is not necessary to mention the prophet or his name , only description about him or events will happen to this prophet .
And the OT is full with prophecies about Jesus without mentioning his name . only descriptions lead you to know the prophecy about him .

TG123 wrote:

How do you know it refers to the migration of Muhammad? Do you believe there were no other battles or migrations in that region between Isaiah and Muhammad?


As long as you know there was another man immigrated in the land of Arabs , and God commanded the people of Tema to support him . then write about him .


TG123 wrote:

It does say this. It says nothing about a prophet winning this battle, it only speaks of the Arabians being defeated.

For Hashem , the G-d of Israel, hath spoken it

TG123 wrote:

He was, but you have not presented any evidence whatsoever this is a reference to a prophet, much less Muhammad.

The evidence in front of you , but your reaction as the reaction of the Jews toward Jesus .
They knew Jesus was a messenger from Allah but they rejected him .
You are at the same boat [ the boat of the unbelievers ].
TG123 wrote:
The Bible clearly says Jesus is God.

Not even in your dream
TG123 wrote:

The passage says nothing about a prophet fleeing from war, like Muhammad did.

Prophet Mohammad never flee from a war .
[67. O Messenger. proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith. ] Surah 5
If prophet Mohammad was not a true prophet , he will not lie about himself .
When the inspiration came with this verse , he told his guards : you are free to go . I have been protected . no one will be able to kill him .
And in 27 battle no one was able to kill prophet Mohammad , and the Jews poisoned him but he did not die . the Pagans and the Jews became hopeless . why ?
because Allah is protecting him . until he completed the last message to mankind .
[This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.]

TG123 wrote:
Isa Ch 21 : 13 -17
( The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim. The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled. For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war. For thus hath the LORD said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail: And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the LORD God of Israel hath spoken it. )
Did Muhammad flee from war?

The Muslims lived in Makkah = Baca " for 13 years . and they faced things much harder than the war itself . some of them have been killed , some of them have been tortured till death , and they have been besieged for three years until they ate the leafs of the trees . and some of them have been tied .

Above all they did not fight back , until Allah commanded his prophet to immigrate from the land of Pagans at that time , to new land : Yathrb . even the holy Quran described them :

[100. And the first to embrace Islam of the Muhajirun (those who migrated from Makkah to Al-Madinah) and theAnsar (the citizens of Al-Madinah who helped and gave aid to the Muhajirun) and also those who followed them exactly (in Faith). Allah is well-pleased with them as they are well-pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success.]
Muhajirun an Arabic word : مهاجرين
so yes . the Muslims were in a situation harder than war without fighting back

[quote="TG123"]A prophet is not mentioned in Isaiah 21:13-17. [ /quote]
Wow , we are adding more info about the prophecy .

TG123 wrote:
And the passage continues, stating: ... and from the grieviousness of war. Did Muhammad flee from war?

Return to my answer above
TG123 wrote:

Neither Muhammad or a prophet is mentioned in the passage. Did Muhammad flee from war?

Return to my answer above

[quote="TG123"]
Isaiah 21:13-17 does not say the people who fled from war defeated the Kedarites.[ /quote]

For Hashem , the G-d of Israel, hath spoken it"


TG123 wrote:

The passage says that traveling companies of Dedanim will be brought water. It says nothing about a man and his followers.

It says about a man : brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled
And about his followers : For they fled from the swords
TG123 wrote:
The passage does not state who defeated the people of Kedar.


For Hashem , the G-d of Israel, hath spoken it"

TG123 wrote:

Who said it was meaningless? I didn't.

You have to prove it was not meaningless , by applying it on someone .
TG123 wrote:

The passage was written originally in Hebrew, not Arabic. The word is "thicket".
http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/baiyaar_3293.htm
Did Muhammad and his men camp in a thicket?


http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?topic=IT0009124

The pronunciation of the word " Ya'ar " in Hebrw is similar to the pronunciation of the word ' وعر " in Arabic

TG123 wrote:
The passage clearly says "Hashem, the God of Israel". If you are going to use this passage as "proof" of Muhammad's prophecy, then you need to state what it actually says. If you claim Hashem means Muhammad, you are stating he is the God of Israel. BTW you earlier claimed he was Muhammad's grandfather.

Clearly, no matter how much you try to twist it, Isaiah 21:13-17 is not about Muhammad or his victory over the Meccans.


No . the passage clearly says : For Hashem , the G-d of Israel, hath spoken it" .
Also you can return to my first comment about the prophecy . to find that I was meaning prophet Mohammad .

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