Was Primordial man Conscious?

[mickiel]

I often wonder if Primordial man even was conscious as we are conscious? I keep coming up with no! Is it possible for a whole race of humans to exist and not be conscious? I think so. Primordial man certainly had very high instincts and that is why they survived for so long; but why did they stay stagnate for so long? Never became civilized. I think because they were not conscious, as we are conscious.

They certainly were not civilized.

The signs of consciousness and civilization, ( and I think consciousness is what led to civilization), are as follows;

Education
Transportation
Language
Math
War
Religion
Agriculture
Building
Sports
technology
culture
And so on. Primordial man never displayed any of these in advanced stages; they were more animal like than I think is reported. They really did not evolve much at all in any of those areas.

And not being conscious beings would explain why.

[Jax Agnesson]

[Replying to post 1 by mickiel]
the question is a bit vague.. Define 'conscious'.
Some years back a small bird flew into the window of my house. I looked out, and saw it lying on its back on the footpath, little legs sticking up, motionless.
'Dead.' I thought.
I went downstairs and out the door, to dispose of the little corpse. As I approached, the bird twitched, struggled onto its legs, ruffled itself, and flew away.
Now. Was the bird unconscious for a minute or so?
If it wasn't unconscious for that minute, what was its state? Dead?
OTOH, if it was unconscious for that minute, doesn't that imply that it was conscious before and after this episode of unconsciousness?

On the specific question; I am sadly lacking in knowledge about our prehistory, but I think there is evidence that neanderthals were as cultured as modern humans at the time. Maybe more so.
Not a clue about cro magnon. Must look that up.

[mickiel]

[Replying to post 1 by mickiel]
the question is a bit vague.. Define 'conscious'.
Some years back a small bird flew into the window of my house. I looked out, and saw it lying on its back on the footpath, little legs sticking up, motionless.
'Dead.' I thought.
I went downstairs and out the door, to dispose of the little corpse. As I approached, the bird twitched, struggled onto its legs, ruffled itself, and flew away.
Now. Was the bird unconscious for a minute or so?
If it wasn't unconscious for that minute, what was its state? Dead?
OTOH, if it was unconscious for that minute, doesn't that imply that it was conscious before and after this episode of unconsciousness?

On the specific question; I am sadly lacking in knowledge about our prehistory, but I think there is evidence that neanderthals were as cultured as modern humans at the time. Maybe more so.
Not a clue about cro magnon. Must look that up.

I can't tell you what was wrong with the bird, but I can tell you that a bird is not a conscious being, so when they sleep or are passed out or whatever, they are not unconscious because they were never conscious in the first place. And Ancient Neanderthals were nowhere ever near as cultured as even the earliest conscious humans after Adam.

Consciousness is awareness and it is the governor of our behavior. And Primordial man was not aware of the things I listed in the OP.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 1 by mickiel]
the question is a bit vague.. Define 'conscious'.
Some years back a small bird flew into the window of my house. I looked out, and saw it lying on its back on the footpath, little legs sticking up, motionless.
'Dead.' I thought.
I went downstairs and out the door, to dispose of the little corpse. As I approached, the bird twitched, struggled onto its legs, ruffled itself, and flew away.
Now. Was the bird unconscious for a minute or so?
If it wasn't unconscious for that minute, what was its state? Dead?
OTOH, if it was unconscious for that minute, doesn't that imply that it was conscious before and after this episode of unconsciousness?

On the specific question; I am sadly lacking in knowledge about our prehistory, but I think there is evidence that neanderthals were as cultured as modern humans at the time. Maybe more so.
Not a clue about cro magnon. Must look that up.

I can't tell you what was wrong with the bird, but I can tell you that a bird is not a conscious being, so when they sleep or are passed out or whatever, they are not unconscious because they were never conscious in the first place. And Ancient Neanderthals were nowhere ever near as cultured as even the earliest conscious humans after Adam.

Consciousness is awareness and it is the governor of our behavior. And Primordial man was not aware of the things I listed in the OP.

And how do you know that Neanderthal is not aware of those things?

And, why do those items have to be on the list for 'consciousness'??

[Goat]

[Replying to post 1 by mickiel]
the question is a bit vague.. Define 'conscious'.
Some years back a small bird flew into the window of my house. I looked out, and saw it lying on its back on the footpath, little legs sticking up, motionless.
'Dead.' I thought.
I went downstairs and out the door, to dispose of the little corpse. As I approached, the bird twitched, struggled onto its legs, ruffled itself, and flew away.
Now. Was the bird unconscious for a minute or so?
If it wasn't unconscious for that minute, what was its state? Dead?
OTOH, if it was unconscious for that minute, doesn't that imply that it was conscious before and after this episode of unconsciousness?

On the specific question; I am sadly lacking in knowledge about our prehistory, but I think there is evidence that neanderthals were as cultured as modern humans at the time. Maybe more so.
Not a clue about cro magnon. Must look that up.

I can't tell you what was wrong with the bird, but I can tell you that a bird is not a conscious being, so when they sleep or are passed out or whatever, they are not unconscious because they were never conscious in the first place. And Ancient Neanderthals were nowhere ever near as cultured as even the earliest conscious humans after Adam.

Consciousness is awareness and it is the governor of our behavior. And Primordial man was not aware of the things I listed in the OP.

Please explain why each and every one of those are on your list, and please show that Neanderthal was not aware of it.

I mean, it has been shown the African greys are aware of math, for goodness sake.

[mickiel]

[Replying to post 1 by mickiel]
the question is a bit vague.. Define 'conscious'.
Some years back a small bird flew into the window of my house. I looked out, and saw it lying on its back on the footpath, little legs sticking up, motionless.
'Dead.' I thought.
I went downstairs and out the door, to dispose of the little corpse. As I approached, the bird twitched, struggled onto its legs, ruffled itself, and flew away.
Now. Was the bird unconscious for a minute or so?
If it wasn't unconscious for that minute, what was its state? Dead?
OTOH, if it was unconscious for that minute, doesn't that imply that it was conscious before and after this episode of unconsciousness?

On the specific question; I am sadly lacking in knowledge about our prehistory, but I think there is evidence that neanderthals were as cultured as modern humans at the time. Maybe more so.
Not a clue about cro magnon. Must look that up.

I can't tell you what was wrong with the bird, but I can tell you that a bird is not a conscious being, so when they sleep or are passed out or whatever, they are not unconscious because they were never conscious in the first place. And Ancient Neanderthals were nowhere ever near as cultured as even the earliest conscious humans after Adam.

Consciousness is awareness and it is the governor of our behavior. And Primordial man was not aware of the things I listed in the OP.

And how do you know that Neanderthal is not aware of those things?

And, why do those items have to be on the list for 'consciousness'??

If they were aware, or conscious of those things, they would have become civilized, because those things are the foundations of civilization. And they " Have to be" the foundation because they simply are. They have to be on the list. Consciousness is increasing complexity, increasing evolution, its increasing knowledge, increasing development, increasing understanding, increasing awareness! These ARE the foundation of civilization, and are the results of consciousness.

Primordial man had no math, no technology, no civilization, no education, no agriculture, no science; and if you disagree, then please show your evidence to prove it. My evidence is the lack of evidence for consciousness.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 1 by mickiel]
the question is a bit vague.. Define 'conscious'.
Some years back a small bird flew into the window of my house. I looked out, and saw it lying on its back on the footpath, little legs sticking up, motionless.
'Dead.' I thought.
I went downstairs and out the door, to dispose of the little corpse. As I approached, the bird twitched, struggled onto its legs, ruffled itself, and flew away.
Now. Was the bird unconscious for a minute or so?
If it wasn't unconscious for that minute, what was its state? Dead?
OTOH, if it was unconscious for that minute, doesn't that imply that it was conscious before and after this episode of unconsciousness?

On the specific question; I am sadly lacking in knowledge about our prehistory, but I think there is evidence that neanderthals were as cultured as modern humans at the time. Maybe more so.
Not a clue about cro magnon. Must look that up.

I can't tell you what was wrong with the bird, but I can tell you that a bird is not a conscious being, so when they sleep or are passed out or whatever, they are not unconscious because they were never conscious in the first place. And Ancient Neanderthals were nowhere ever near as cultured as even the earliest conscious humans after Adam.

Consciousness is awareness and it is the governor of our behavior. And Primordial man was not aware of the things I listed in the OP.

And how do you know that Neanderthal is not aware of those things?

And, why do those items have to be on the list for 'consciousness'??

If they were aware, or conscious of those things, they would have become civilized, because those things are the foundations of civilization. And they " Have to be" the foundation because they simply are. They have to be on the list. Consciousness is increasing complexity, increasing evolution, its increasing knowledge, increasing development, increasing understanding, increasing awareness! These ARE the foundation of civilization, and are the results of consciousness.

Primordial man had no math, no technology, no civilization, no education, no agriculture, no science; and if you disagree, then please show your evidence to prove it. My evidence is the lack of evidence for consciousness.

I challenge your assumption that consciousness requires civilization, math and agriculture. I challenge your assumption that the Neanderthal did not have culture, education or technology. I challenge your assumption that you need culture, education and technology for conciousness.

In other words, I don't think anything about your primary assumptions is true or accurate.

[mickiel]

[Replying to post 1 by mickiel]
the question is a bit vague.. Define 'conscious'.
Some years back a small bird flew into the window of my house. I looked out, and saw it lying on its back on the footpath, little legs sticking up, motionless.
'Dead.' I thought.
I went downstairs and out the door, to dispose of the little corpse. As I approached, the bird twitched, struggled onto its legs, ruffled itself, and flew away.
Now. Was the bird unconscious for a minute or so?
If it wasn't unconscious for that minute, what was its state? Dead?
OTOH, if it was unconscious for that minute, doesn't that imply that it was conscious before and after this episode of unconsciousness?

On the specific question; I am sadly lacking in knowledge about our prehistory, but I think there is evidence that neanderthals were as cultured as modern humans at the time. Maybe more so.
Not a clue about cro magnon. Must look that up.

I can't tell you what was wrong with the bird, but I can tell you that a bird is not a conscious being, so when they sleep or are passed out or whatever, they are not unconscious because they were never conscious in the first place. And Ancient Neanderthals were nowhere ever near as cultured as even the earliest conscious humans after Adam.

Consciousness is awareness and it is the governor of our behavior. And Primordial man was not aware of the things I listed in the OP.

And how do you know that Neanderthal is not aware of those things?

And, why do those items have to be on the list for 'consciousness'??

If they were aware, or conscious of those things, they would have become civilized, because those things are the foundations of civilization. And they " Have to be" the foundation because they simply are. They have to be on the list. Consciousness is increasing complexity, increasing evolution, its increasing knowledge, increasing development, increasing understanding, increasing awareness! These ARE the foundation of civilization, and are the results of consciousness.

Primordial man had no math, no technology, no civilization, no education, no agriculture, no science; and if you disagree, then please show your evidence to prove it. My evidence is the lack of evidence for consciousness.

I challenge your assumption that consciousness requires civilization, math and agriculture. I challenge your assumption that the Neanderthal did not have culture, education or technology. I challenge your assumption that you need culture, education and technology for conciousness.

In other words, I don't think anything about your primary assumptions is true or accurate.

Culture , Education and Technology are all byproducts of consciousness; all results of it. None can be subtracted from it. You don't need those for consciousness, consciousness comes first and breeds those.

[Goat]

Culture , Education and Technology are all byproducts of consciousness; all results of it. None can be subtracted from it. You don't need those for consciousness, consciousness comes first and breeds those.

Yes, you need consciousness to have culture education and technology.

You have not shown that Neanderthal didn't have those, nor did you show that you can't have consciousness without those.

Repeating an unsupported claim does not show that unsupported claim is true.

[mickiel]

Culture , Education and Technology are all byproducts of consciousness; all results of it. None can be subtracted from it. You don't need those for consciousness, consciousness comes first and breeds those.

Yes, you need consciousness to have culture education and technology.

You have not shown that Neanderthal didn't have those, nor did you show that you can't have consciousness without those.

Repeating an unsupported claim does not show that unsupported claim is true.

I have shown it, you just don't accept or recognize the manner in which I showed it.250,000 years of human living with no civilization developing is stunning proof that Neanderthals did NOT have consciousness.Why you can;'t see this, is beyond me?