Salvation from God’s point of view

[puddleglum]

When we think or talk about salvation we usually mean the process of having our sins forgiven by repenting of them and putting our faith in Jesus Christ. From the human point of view this is what salvation is but from God’s viewpoint this is only one of several steps. The complete process is described in Romans 8:29,30:

Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

We see that salvation consists of five steps: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification.

The first step, foreknowledge, is the logical result of God’s omniscience. He knew even before he created us who would believe the gospel and who would reject it.

He decided that those who believed the gospel were to be conformed to the image of Christ and so become part of God’s family. This decision is called predestination. He predestined those who believe to become like Christ but he didn’t predestine those who reject the gospel to any particular fate. The final destiny of the lost is simply the natural result of their own unbelief and not anything to which God has predestined them.

The next step is calling those whom he has predestined. He does this thru the preaching of the gospel. He causes someone to tell them the gospel so they can believe it and be saved. From our point of view this seems to be the beginning of the salvation experience because it is the first one we are aware of.

When we believe the gospel we are justified in God’s sight because all of our sins are forgiven. This includes all those we will commit in the future as well as those in the past because God already knows what those sins will be.

The final step in salvation is glorification, when the process of making us like Christ is completed. This will occur when Christ returns and takes the believers out in the rapture. Our bodies will be transformed to be like Christ’s body and the bodies of all believers who have died will be resurrected. Even though this is still in the future it is so certain that God speaks of it in the past tense as though it had already taken place.

Some people believe that it is possible for a person to become a Christian and then lose his salvation and revert to an unsaved state. If you look as salvation as only being the person’s acceptance of Jesus as savior this could seem like a plausible belief. It is possible for someone to embrace a belief and later reject it so if our salvation was dependent only on our faith we could lose it. But if you look at the entire process you will see losing salvation is impossible. When we put our faith in Christ God already knows all that is ahead in our lives. He would never save us in the first place if he knew that we would turn away from him and be lost.

About sixty years ago a detective story writer named Mickey Spillane was very popular. I recall reading an interview in which he described how he wrote his stories. He said that when he began a book he would write the last chapter first and then write the rest of the book to bring about the conclusion he had already written. This is the same way God works when he saves us. He decides that our final destiny will be to be glorified so that we will be like Christ and the rest of the process consists of bringing about this result. We can have complete confidence in our salvation because our last chapter has already been written by God.

I am aware of one objection that might be raised at this point. All of us know about people who have made a profession of faith in Christ and then turned away from following him. Some of you who are reading this might be among them. Doesn’t this show that a person can become a Christian and then lose his salvation?

This problem has come about because there are teachers and churches who teach a false way of salvation. This false teaching can take many forms. Some teach that something else, such as baptism or good works, is needed in addition to faith. Some teach salvation by faith but have an unbiblical idea of what faith is. The kind of faith which brings salvation involves a recognition that we have sinned and deserve to be punished but that Christ took the punishment we deserve. Some preachers fail to emphasize the fact that we are sinners and so many are led to profess faith without really repenting of their sins. The result of this false teaching is that there are many who sincerely believe that they are Christians when they aren’t. If they fall away from professing to be Christians it appears that they are losing their salvation when in fact they were never saved in the first place.

I know from personal experience that what it is like to make a false profession of being a Christian. I have gone to church all my life but when I was young the church I attended wasn’t very Biblical in it teachings. I never was taught that salvation is by faith alone but thought that is was necessary to be baptized and them work to earn salvation. When I was 14 years old I was baptized and I thought that I was now a Christian. About two years later I had a Sunday school teacher who was really a Christian. She listened to a program called Back To The Bible and because of her recommendation I began listening too. As a result of the teaching I heard on the radio I finally came to understand that salvation is a free gift of God and I put my faith in Christ and for the first time really became a Christian. If I had not done this and at some future time had come to reject the truths I had learned about the Bible it would have seemed to others that I had been saved and had lost my salvation when in fact I would never have been saved in the first place. I am thankful that God didn’t allow this to happen but sent someone into my life who would guide me into the truth.

[ttruscott]

...

Romans 8:29,30:

Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

We see that salvation consists of five steps: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification.

The first step, foreknowledge, is the logical result of God’s omniscience. He knew even before he created us who would believe the gospel and who would reject it.

...

I disagree only with your understanding of foreknowledge and feel compelled to speak up.

I know this is the orthodox position but I'm highly dismayed that orthodoxy supports this interpretation just to keep the rest of their doctrine viable.

IF GOD knew before HE created us who would reject salvation BUT CREATED US ANYWAY just to end in hell, then HE cannot be the GOD who is love. Especially in light of that other horror of orthodoxy, that HE created the vast majority of humans as sinners facing judgment in Adam, and not by any choice of their own....pehhh.

Scripture tells us HE created everything for HIS pleasure and that HE takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked so it is obvious that HE did not create the evil ones for destruction.

[Does the WOE of: Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. refer to those who preach this blasphemous orthodoxy?]

I contend that you are right, this is a logical result of the orthodox interpretation of God’s omniscience which proves to me their definition of omniscience must be wrong since it contradicts the self revealed attributes of GOD.

Orthodoxy defines GOD's omniscience as being a part of HIS nature, who HE is, which we see leads us into blasphemy contradicting other parts of HIS revealed nature. Both of these can't be true no matter how many fine words are written to make it SEEM true. One of the sides must be broken and needs fixing. The ancient Church decided to paste over the contradiction with fine words about GODLY MYSTERIES, pehhh,

but ignored another definition of omniscience as old as theirs, GOD is omniscient by the Decrees of Creation: Acts 15:18 'Known unto God are all HIS WORKS from the beginning of the world.'

but NOT all of everything…

GOD knows with a full and complete knowledge everything HE decrees to exist or to happen, that is, all HIS works. GOD also knows that which HE has not decreed to exist or to happen as possibilities, fully and with complete knowledge.

Pre-Conception Existence Theology contends that GOD, by sovereign decree, created all of us with the ability to make true free will decisions, but HE did NOT decree the results of those choices so HE knew what we would choose perfectly only as possibilities.

So, I contend that GOD's omniscience by HIS decrees covers:
1. all of reality; that is, all that HE ever decreed to be created, that is, all HIS works.
2. all of possibility; that is every possible permutation of the nature of the future was known to HIM.

So, I claim HIS omniscience is full and complete.

BUT I also contend that by HIS sovereignty, HE did not decree which possibility any of the spirits created in HIS image would choose by their free will, leaving that decision up to their own choice based upon their faith, their unproven hope for their happiness, Heb 11: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ie unproven.

Does anyone argue that GOD cannot let a created person choose freely without being forced by a decree of creation? GOD's will is sovereign and IF He does not decree which possibility will be chosen that is HIS will and it is righteous.

Therefore, in this manner, HE did not create the destiny (predestinate) of anyone before their creation nor before their decision to accept HIM or to reject HIM as GOD, and the fate HE predestined them to was in perfect accord with their own true free will decision, made by faith, ie an unproven hope, before the earth was created.

Earthly life on the other hand is predestined and predetermined to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and to holiness by using the tares as the supreme bad example of hatred to GOD.

Peace, Ted

[spotterex1712]

[Replying to ttruscott]

It seems that much of the weight of your argument hangs on

but ignored another definition of omniscience as old as theirs, GOD is omniscient by the Decrees of Creation: Acts 15:18 'Known unto God are all HIS WORKS from the beginning of the world.'

In the Bibles that I have on hand (NIV, ESV), 'unto God' seems to be 'less chosen'. Can anyone with a Gk NT & apparatus comment?

Is it possible that James follows his quotation of Amos with something along the lines of "We've (Jews) always known this."? He is after all addressing the Jerusalem council on the topic of gentile believers. It stands to reason that reminding them (Jews) of what they (Jews) knew (or in the course of a rhetorical speech, what they should know) would be an effective rhetorical device as he moves to set what may have been a very difficult course of action for Jews to accept.

If it is possible that the subject of v18 is James' fellow brethern and not God, does that not at least leave the possibility that omniscience is within the nature of God?

[mwtech]

The complete process is described in Romans 8:29,30:

Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

To start off, I hope it is okay that I am posting in this forum even though I am not a Christian, but I am not here to debate whether or not the Bible is true. Only what it means under the assumption that it is all 100% true.

In discussions I have had about this passage, and concerning predestination of the Calvinist sort, I find that this isn't the only way to look at the verse.
The best way I can explain this is with a more human analogy. As a child, I was a tomboy and always wanted to play out in the dirt and climb trees. I hated "girl toys" but my sister liked them. My mother, knowing her children better than anyone, knew what I liked and disliked, kind of like God knows what everyone of his creations are like.
Let's say that my mother offers both my sister and I a barbie. It is completely up to us whether we will accept this gift, and she wont make us pick one way or the other. She knows I don't like barbies and that I will not accept the gift. But she still wants me to. She didn't choose my sister to have a gift and me to be without one, but she knew that my sister was the only one who would accept it. To be fair though, she offered it to both of us.
This is how I see God's offer of salvation. This is the only way we can be saved, so this is the gift he offers, even though he knows some will not want it. Being a just God, he offers it to everyone, but his foreknowledge, not just of the ones who will accept, but of everything eternally, means he knows who will take it and who will not. This does not affect the free will of the recipients or those who reject it.
As for the rest of the verse, I take it to mean that God's plan for the individuals that accept the calling, whoever they may be, is to justify and glorify them. It isn't a plan tailored for each individual, but an offer for all off mankind. When you look at this verse alone, you can easily come up with your interpretation of it, but you have to take the New Testament as a whole into consideration to determine the process of salvation.

The bible indicates that there is much more involved in salvation than just belief in God and Jesus as the son of god.
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." James 2:19
Although hearing and believing is the first step, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24
But then there are still further requirements or you cannot get into heaven.
"No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Luke 13:3
"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9
"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" John 3:5

So according to all of the Bible, you have to hear and believe the gospel, confess it with your mouth before witnesses, repent of sins, and be baptized before you are qualified to enter heaven. And After that, you an't continue to sin and still be saved. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Romans 6:1-2

Some people believe that it is possible for a person to become a Christian and then lose his salvation and revert to an unsaved state. If you look as salvation as only being the person’s acceptance of Jesus as savior this could seem like a plausible belief. It is possible for someone to embrace a belief and later reject it so if our salvation was dependent only on our faith we could lose it. But if you look at the entire process you will see losing salvation is impossible. When we put our faith in Christ God already knows all that is ahead in our lives. He would never save us in the first place if he knew that we would turn away from him and be lost.

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel" Galatians 1:6
Paul writes to these Galatians who have been predestined and called into the grace of Christ, but then they remove themselves from the truth and turn to another gospel, that is not another (saying that the so called "gospel they turned to" is untrue). So if Romans 8:29,30 is the only way a person can be saved, and only those predestined to be saved will be called to Christ and justified and glorified, it couldn't be possible that these people Paul is writing to had both been saved and then fallen away. We know it isn't a case of Paul just thinking they are saved when they actually weren't because Paul speaks for God and all his words are inspired of God. Under your interpretation of the salvation plan, either Paul is mistaken about them being saved, or Paul is mistaken about them falling away. If the Bible is 1000% true, neither of those can be true, so we have to assume that your interpretation of salvation is untrue.

[Divine Insight]

Like mwtech I'm not currently a Christian. However I was a Christian at one time.

I have several problems with the presentation given in the OP.

For one thing it's a presentation that is based upon the writings of Paul, not from the teachings of Jesus.

Secondly, as theophilus40 points out, many denominations of Christianity would need to be extremely confused and outright wrong. That doesn't make for a very sound religion.

Finally in the presentation of theophilus40 morality doesn't even come into play at all. On the contrary, the entire belief system that is being described in the OP is one based entirely upon a mere belief that Jesus was the son of God. After that, all sins are forgiven (both past and future) and the person wins a free trip to heaven in spite of the fact that they are a sinner.

Moreover, this interpretation of the religion basically demands that many decent, honest, and well-meaning people will meet a less than divine fate simply because they didn't believe in a story of a demigod told by ancient sheep herders.

It totally amazes me that anyone could believe in a God who would set up a system of salvation that is based entirely on whether or not a person believes in a bunch of ancient rumors.

To me, that very notion right there is one of the most powerful reasons to toss the religion aside and be convinced that it cannot be the divine plan of any all-wise God. At that point it doesn't really even matter whether a person believes in the bible or not. It's not a matter of believing in the bible but rather its entirely a matter of which convoluted conclusions a person is willing to accept from these ancient texts.

Like I say, the OP is entirely based upon the writings of a guy named Paul. But what about the teachings of Jesus himself?

In the Christian denomination I was brought up in we were taught the teachings of Jesus. And Jesus taught that the path to the kingdom of God is straight and the gate is narrow, and that acceptance into the kingdom of God does indeed depend upon a person's behavior and righteousness. There is nothing in the teachings of Jesus that suggest that anyone will be given a free ride to heaven just because they believe that Jesus was the son of God.

So I don't see where theophilus40 gets off speaking like as if the particular version of Christianity described in the OP should be seen as "Truth". It's just one of a myriad of guesses that religious people have made concerning these ancient fables.

It's also based on the teachings of Paul rather than on the teachings of Jesus.

[Goat]

When we think or talk about salvation we usually mean the process of having our sins forgiven by repenting of them and putting our faith in Jesus Christ. From the human point of view this is what salvation is but from God’s viewpoint this is only one of several steps. The complete process is described in Romans 8:29,30:

Well, that is salvation from Paul's point of view. I don't see Paul knowing what God wanted any more than anybody else. Therefore, your statement is making too many assumptions.

[Divine Insight]

When we think or talk about salvation we usually mean the process of having our sins forgiven by repenting of them and putting our faith in Jesus Christ. From the human point of view this is what salvation is but from God’s viewpoint this is only one of several steps. The complete process is described in Romans 8:29,30:

Well, that is salvation from Paul's point of view. I don't see Paul knowing what God wanted any more than anybody else. Therefore, your statement is making too many assumptions.

For me this is a huge problem with the bible and ultimately one of the major reasons I've since renounced it.

Theophilus is pointing out the words of Paul and going by that.

But what about word attributed to Jesus?

According to the Gospel of Luke Jesus said the following:

Luke.6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

If Jesus speaks for God, then pointing to Luke 6:37 should be sufficient for salvation.

If you don't judge others then Jesus promises that you won't be judged.
(assuming we can trust the words of Jesus)

If you don't condemn others then Jesus promises that you won't be condemned.
(assuming we can trust the words of Jesus)

If you forgive others then Jesus promises that you will be forgiven.
(assuming we can trust the words of Jesus)

This path to salvation is based upon the teachings of Jesus, not Paul.

This is also far more in line with my Christian upbringing. As far as I was concerned this was "Christian Truth". Because after all, Jesus is the one who said, "I am the Truth, and the Way".

So why would you turn to Paul for anything when Jesus had already set the bar?

Isn't Jesus supposed to be the spokesperson for God in Christianity?

That's how my church taught it. And personally I feel that they were at least being consistent by focusing on Jesus rather than on Paul.

[puddleglum]

Finally in the presentation of theophilus40 morality doesn't even come into play at all. On the contrary, the entire belief system that is being described in the OP is one based entirely upon a mere belief that Jesus was the son of God. After that, all sins are forgiven (both past and future) and the person wins a free trip to heaven in spite of the fact that they are a sinner.

The passage I quoted is found in chapter 8 of Romans. If you read the first seven chapters you will find that this is all about morality. The first three chapters show that all of us fall short of God's standards of morality and deserve nothing but condemnation. Some have more knowledge than others but none of us has lived up to what he knows is right.

You could say that this world is a death row inhabited by people who have been sentenced to death and are simply waiting for their sentence to be carried out. God offering us a pardon. Those who reject it won't be condemned because they reject it; the sentence that was already imposed on them will be carried out.

If you read the last part of Romans you will find that salvation leads to living a moral life.

Like I say, the OP is entirely based upon the writings of a guy named Paul. But what about the teachings of Jesus himself?

Here is what Jesus said.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
(John 6:47 ESV)

Paul explained what Jesus meant by this.