Question for one who follows Judaism

[Elijah John]

I understand that from a Jewish perspective, Gentiles are only required to follow the 7 Noahide laws. My question is, if one follows the Ten Commandments, does one fulfill the laws of Noah?

It seems to me that the Ten Commandments, though meant originally and specifically for the Hebrew people, have a universal application. So it seems to me that the answer would be "yes" that one can fulfill the Noahide laws if one strives to observe the Ten Commandments, and thus be a "Righteous Gentile" or a "God Fearer".

There seems to be a lot of overlap between the two sets of law, but I'm not sure I understand what the prohibition against "eating the limb off a live animal" means. I mean, who does that?!

[Goat]

I understand that from a Jewish perspective, Gentiles are only required to follow the 7 Noahide laws. My question is, if one follows the Ten Commandments, does one fulfill the laws of Noah?

It seems to me that the Ten Commandments, though meant originally and specifically for the Hebrew people, have a universal application. So it seems to me that the answer would be "yes" that one can fulfill the Noahide laws if one strives to observe the Ten Commandments, and thus be a "Righteous Gentile" or a "God Fearer".

There seems to be a lot of overlap between the two sets of law, but I'm not sure I understand what the prohibition against "eating the limb off a live animal" means. I mean, who does that?!

Well, have you ever had shell fish?? You know, oysters,, on the shell. ??

That's the same thing.

If someone follows the 10 commandments, it generally covers the noahide.. but the 10 commandments is not all the laws. While there is one specific (though shall not covet thy neighbor's wife. ), the 10 commandments do not cover sexual immorality, and the noahide does. The 613 laws the Jews are supposed to keep (the number is traditional, i don't know if anybody actually counted them up) covers everything in the Noahide, but I don't think the 10 commandments alone does.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by Goat]

I hate shellfish....Anway, I guess I interpreted that law about the live Animal limb in a more general sense to avoid cruelty to animals that one intends to eat.

I realize the 10 commandments are not all the laws, and that the command to observe the Sabbath is required for Jews only, as are the 613. But the 10 Commandments are taught in Christian circles as well, and revered by even fundamentalists as laws of morality. The first few govern one's relationship with JHVH the one true God and the rest govern ones relationship with one's fellow man.

Any other perspectives on this? I find that while almost everyone I know of is familiar with the 10 Commandments, almost no one outside of Judaism has even heard or the Noahide laws. I have heard proponents of the dual covenant theory propose that the laws of Moses were meant for the Jewish people, and the Gentiles have Jesus as their way to the God of Abraham. It seems the message of the Noahide laws just is not getting out. That's a shame, because in the minds of the masses, one either has to be a Jew, Trinitarian Christian of a Muslim to worship the Living God. Very few seem to realize there are other alternatives.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 2 by Goat]

I hate shellfish....Anway, I guess I interpreted that law about the live Animal limb in a more general sense to avoid cruelty to animals that one intends to eat.

I realize the 10 commandments are not all the laws, and that the command to observe the Sabbath is required for Jews only, as are the 613. But the 10 Commandments are taught in Christian circles as well, and revered by even fundamentalists as laws of morality. The first few govern one's relationship with JHVH the one true God and the rest govern ones relationship with one's fellow man.

Any other perspectives on this? I find that while almost everyone I know of is familiar with the 10 Commandments, almost no one outside of Judaism has even heard or the Noahide laws. I have heard proponents of the dual covenant theory propose that the laws of Moses were meant for the Jewish people, and the Gentiles have Jesus as their way to the God of Abraham. It seems the message of the Noahide laws just is not getting out. That's a shame, because in the minds of the masses, one either has to be a Jew, Trinitarian Christian of a Muslim to worship the Living God. Very few seem to realize there are other alternatives.

Well, the Jewish attitude is that the covenant mentioned in Jewish scriptures is the one between the Jews and God. That is the Jewish path to understand God/divinity. That does not rule out other people have other paths to God. Judaism is just the way the Jews Chose to worship God. If another group has another path to God, that's between them and God.

[cnorman18]

Goat's remarks are right on the money and well taken, but let me add a few notes:

There are formal congregations of Noachide believers, which are defined as non-Jews who believe in and follow the Jewish God. There are none in my area that I know of, and I never considered that approach when I was considering conversion to Judaism myself (though it was mentioned by more than one rabbi).

The prohibition of eating the flesh of a living animal is a reference to some practices of ancient times that involved cutting parts from a living animal and roasting them, or else roasting an animal while it still lived. The only modern practices I know of that are analogous (and would thus violate that law) are some varieties of sashimi which are served while the fish is still alive, stone crab claws (the claws are cut from the crabs, which are then thrown back to grow new ones), and the Southwestern dish called "calf fries," which are the cooked testicles of a castrated calf. I was in a restaurant on Saturday night that served them. I have never eaten them and don't care to, though I know of several people who like them.

Most of the Noachide laws are covered by others among the 613 prescribed for Jews, at least by tradition or implication -- e.g., the admonition to establish courts to administer the laws. Careful examination of the Noachide laws will show that there are three among the Ten that are not included for Gentiles, notably Sabbath observance (as noted above), honoring one's parents, and worshiping the Hebrew God (one may worship other gods if one chooses, but one may not make idols).

Hope that helps.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to cnorman18]

I guess what I'm wondering, ultimately, is that if a Gentile tries to keep the 10 commandments, is he obligated to keep all 613.?..I mean in the eyes of Judaism that is. Or do the rabbis encourage Gentiles to ONLY to keep the Noahide laws (and not the 10) if they do not wish to convert and become full Jews?

Even with the explanations given regarding the limb off of a living animal, (and I do appreciate your answers), the Noahide laws seem kind of arbitrary to me, except for the ones that overlap with the Ten Commandments and the courts of law (the latter of which seems to apply more to society than the individual.)

Also, why prohibit the making of idols if one is allowed to worship "other gods" It seems to me that implicit in the prohibition against making idols, is the prohibition to worship the idol or the god depicited by the idol, and the command to worship only the Living God, YHVH.

[cnorman18]

[Replying to cnorman18]

I guess what I'm wondering, ultimately, is that if a Gentile tries to keep the 10 commandments, is he obligated to keep all 613.?..I mean in the eyes of Judaism that is. Or do the rabbis encourage Gentiles to ONLY to keep the Noahide laws (and not the 10) if they do not wish to convert and become full Jews?

Depends on the rabbi, frankly. Traditionally, Gentiles were told to keep the 7 only, and that attempting to follow the 10 (or the whole Law) was, er, inappropriate. Some put it even more strongly. It might still be a live issue among the Orthodox today, but in modern Jewish circles, it's no longer a particularly important subject.

You have to remember that there is no formal teaching about an Afterlife in Judaism, and therefore this whole subject is more or less academic and theoretical. It's more on the level of what would be "the best way," and no eternal consequences are assumed.

Even with the explanations given regarding the limb off of a living animal, (and I do appreciate your answers), the Noahide laws seem kind of arbitrary to me, except for the ones that overlap with the Ten Commandments and the courts of law (the latter of which seems to apply more to society than the individual.)

You'll get no argument from me. The 7 are a matter of tradition; they aren't to be found explicit anywhere in the Torah. It's worth noting that the Law as a whole has been said to be a collective enterprise for the Jewish people; it's hard to miss that the punishments and rewards associated with breaking and keeping it in the Torah are generallydirected at the whole people and not at individuals.

Also, why prohibit the making of idols if one is allowed to worship "other gods" It seems to me that implicit in the prohibition against making idols, is the prohibition to worship the idol or the god depicited by the idol, and the command to worship only the Living God, YHVH.

My honest answer: You got me, man. It looks that way to me, too.

[bluethread]

Also, why prohibit the making of idols if one is allowed to worship "other gods" It seems to me that implicit in the prohibition against making idols, is the prohibition to worship the idol or the god depicited by the idol, and the command to worship only the Living God, YHVH.

There is the rub with regard to the "Noachide Laws". As cnorman pointed out they are rabbinic and not explicitly mentioned in the Tanach. Some messianics/Christians point to the council of Jerusalem in the Apostolic Writings as a reference to them. This is referred to as "two-track" among messianics. The problem is that it violates the "one law" principle that is explicitly stated in HaTorah.

Exodus 12:49 KJV

One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 24:22 KJV

Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

Numbers 15:16 KJV

One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you

Numbers 15:29 KJV

Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.


Therefore, if one wishes to present oneself as one of Adonai's people, one must be Torah observant, as must everyone who visits ones home and community.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 8 by bluethread]

All those verses refer to the stranger who lives "among" or "with" you being obligated to follow the (613) laws.

As for the other nations in total....Thanks to the Jewish comminity and also to Paul (whatever his faults and misteachings) and Jesus, the whole western word is familiar with the ten commandments and many worship YHVH, the god of Israel.

Whatever our differences, I would hope that the Jews takes some satisfaction in that (I know Rabbi Harold Kushner does)...And personally it is important to me because even though I am not Jewish, I tend to respect and share their interpretation of the Bible..especially regarding the Onesss of God.

And even though I don't believe that Jesus death is an atonement or in his Divinity, I still think his teaching on the law makes a lot of sense. The two great commandments and the Golden rule. So it seems to me if one follows the ten, and the golden rule, one is following the Spirit ( if not the letter always) the 613 commandments and the Noahide ones as well. It seems to me that the Ten, although originally meant for Jews only, is now our common heritage. Thanks for your thoughtful replies.

[Nickman]

I understand that from a Jewish perspective, Gentiles are only required to follow the 7 Noahide laws. My question is, if one follows the Ten Commandments, does one fulfill the laws of Noah?

It seems to me that the Ten Commandments, though meant originally and specifically for the Hebrew people, have a universal application. So it seems to me that the answer would be "yes" that one can fulfill the Noahide laws if one strives to observe the Ten Commandments, and thus be a "Righteous Gentile" or a "God Fearer".

There seems to be a lot of overlap between the two sets of law, but I'm not sure I understand what the prohibition against "eating the limb off a live animal" means. I mean, who does that?!

How is obeying the Sabbath, having no other Gods before me, and making no graven images universal?