IS WITCHCRAFT GOOD OR EVIL?

[acehighinfinity]

[Replying to post 106 by Divine Insight]
DIVINE INSIGHT:

Moreover, I find the verse that you have posted to be quite interesting and I use it frequently to defend my witchcraft against Christian criticism. The Christians often claim that witches get their power from Satan (just as Jesus had been accused of in the verse you've quoted).

However, like Jesus I use my powers for good works. Therefore, for the very same reasons that Jesus gave my powers cannot come from Beelzebub (or Satan) because a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Therefore my powers necessarily must come from God, for precisely the same reasons that Jesus gave.

If what Jesus spoke is truth, then clearly it must also apply to me. I cannot do good works in the name of Beelzebub, demons, or Satan because that would be a house divided against itself.

So I find it rather humorous that Jesus himself has totally vindicated all witches who do good works. Because their power (according to Jesus) can only come from God. Only God's power can be used for good works.

I would like to invite you here DIVINE INSIGHT
The above post caught my attention and I would like to bring this to the light. Now in another thread I am under the impression you study Buddhism but claim not to be a Buddhist, correct?

I am totally against WitchCraft according to the Holy Bible:
Deuteronomy 18:14 "The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so."
Revelation 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Leviticus 19:26 "Do not practice divination or seek omens"
...the list goes on.

Questions:
If Divine Insight claim to use WitchCraft for good, then could you or anyone else list those examples please?
Does one see WitchCraft as Good? or
Does one see WitchCraft as Evil?

Feel free to add on.

Thanks in advance,
Ace

[Goat]

[Replying to post 106 by Divine Insight]
DIVINE INSIGHT:

Moreover, I find the verse that you have posted to be quite interesting and I use it frequently to defend my witchcraft against Christian criticism. The Christians often claim that witches get their power from Satan (just as Jesus had been accused of in the verse you've quoted).

However, like Jesus I use my powers for good works. Therefore, for the very same reasons that Jesus gave my powers cannot come from Beelzebub (or Satan) because a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Therefore my powers necessarily must come from God, for precisely the same reasons that Jesus gave.

If what Jesus spoke is truth, then clearly it must also apply to me. I cannot do good works in the name of Beelzebub, demons, or Satan because that would be a house divided against itself.

So I find it rather humorous that Jesus himself has totally vindicated all witches who do good works. Because their power (according to Jesus) can only come from God. Only God's power can be used for good works.

I would like to invite you here DIVINE INSIGHT
The above post caught my attention and I would like to bring this to the light. Now in another thread I am under the impression you study Buddhism but claim not to be a Buddhist, correct?

I am totally against WitchCraft according to the Holy Bible:
Deuteronomy 18:14 "The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so."
Revelation 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Leviticus 19:26 "Do not practice divination or seek omens"
...the list goes on.

Questions:
If Divine Insight claim to use WitchCraft for good, then could you or anyone else list those examples please?
Does one see WitchCraft as Good? or
Does one see WitchCraft as Evil?

Feel free to add on.

Thanks in advance,
Ace

"Witchcraft" is neither good nor evil, it just is. Now, the passages you gave in the bible are pretty badly translated. The passages basically are talking about people who divine via spirits of the dead, and deal with spirits of the dead... more along the lines of mediums (The con man, john edwards, would be a good example of this). Wiccians, in general, do not fall under the category that is claimed by the bible. So, using the bible as an authority to proclaim 'witchcraft' is evil is incorrect to begin with.

As for Wicca, personally, they don't follow the 'Holy Bible' to begin with. One of the Wiccan Rede's (cute phrases of advice) is 'Do what thy wilt, but harm none'

So, no, witchcraft, as a rule, is not evil. I am sure there are people who are not nice people who use 'witchcraft' for nefarious purposes, but they would be more the 'anti-christian' witches.. those who are the satanists, and specifically are rebelling against Christianity. They would be a minority of folks, and they would be specifically using distorting versions of Christian symbols. That is different than the average wiccan who has nothing to do with Christian traditions to begin with.

[McCulloch]

Before this debate proceeds it might be useful to agree upon a definition of what is meant by witchcraft. If, for example, witchcraft is defined as a powerful alliance with the forces of evil to maliciously use supernatural forces for personal power and aggrandizement, then the answer to the debate question is rather obvious. However, if you define magic as an attempt to understand, experience and influence the world using rituals, symbols and language in a manner similar to religion, the answer may be completely different.

[Divine Insight]

Before this debate proceeds it might be useful to agree upon a definition of what is meant by witchcraft. If, for example, witchcraft is defined as a powerful alliance with the forces of evil to maliciously use supernatural forces for personal power and aggrandizement, then the answer to the debate question is rather obvious. However, if you define magic as an attempt to understand, experience and influence the world using rituals, symbols and language in a manner similar to religion, the answer may be completely different.

I agree with McCulloch, you can force the semantics of a word simply by what you define the word to mean.

In response to the OP, clearly because of the Wiccan rede "Do what thy wilt, but harm none". Wiccans cannot perform harmful witchcraft. For if they do, they are in violation of the Wiccan rede and therefore not practicing "Wicca".

Because of this, "Witchcraft" in Wicca cannot be evil. It cannot be harmful or malicious. Therefore if you are defining Wiccan Witchcraft to be harmful, evil, or malicious then you are creating a definition that does not properly reflect the truth of Wicca.

Moreover, according to Jesus, good works cannot be done in the name of Satan, for a house divided against itself will surely fall.

Since Wiccans can only do good words (because of their foundational Rede) then their power cannot come from Satan for the very same reason that Jesus proclaimed that his powers cannot come from Satan. They can only come from God.

This was Jesus' own excuse. If it holds true for him, then it must hold true for everyone.

So Jesus has vindicated the Wiccans as obviously being empowered by God. That is the only source from which their good works can emanate according to Jesus.

Of course for those who don't believe in a God or Satan, then the good works of Wiccans must necessarily emanate from their own being. But that's a totally different perspective.

In the meantime, Jesus clearly supports that Wiccans can only be getting their power from God for the very same reasons that he gave in his own defense for having performed sorcery and magical feats through the power of God.

~~~~~

If this defense is valid for Jesus then it must apply to everyone.

[bluethread]

We also need to be clear on the definition of evil. The word for evil in HaTorah is 'ra. That would be the deity of eygpt. The implication is that the ways of Eygpt, ie. the world, is what the Scriptures mean when it speaks of evils. Evil is that which is not according to Adonai's ways. The Hebrew word translated as magician is chartom. It refers to a wide variety of activities, generally associated with false deities and spirits. One of those activities is witchcraft (Qecem). more rightly called devination or necromancy. Two good examples are those who attempted to interpret Pharoah's dream and those who attempted to copy the plagues.

Adonai's people are permitted to be involved in the supernatural. In fact, they are often criticized by scientific humanist for doing so. What differentiates the prophets and miracle workers of Adonai from magicians and necromancers is the source of there power. A prophet and miracle worker of Adonai is willing to bet his life on the fact that what he is doing is from the Ruach HaChedosh Adonai(Holy Spirit of Adonai) and no one else.

[Divine Insight]

We also need to be clear on the definition of evil. The word for evil in HaTorah is 'ra. That would be the deity of eygpt. The implication is that the ways of Eygpt, ie. the world, is what the Scriptures mean when it speaks of evils. Evil is that which is not according to Adonai's ways. The Hebrew word translated as magician is chartom. It refers to a wide variety of activities, generally associated with false deities and spirits. One of those activities is witchcraft (Qecem). more rightly called devination or necromancy. Two good examples are those who attempted to interpret Pharoah's dream and those who attempted to copy the plagues.

Adonai's people are permitted to be involved in the supernatural. In fact, they are often criticized by scientific humanist for doing so. What differentiates the prophets and miracle workers of Adonai from magicians and necromancers is the source of there power. A prophet and miracle worker of Adonai is willing to bet his life on the fact that what he is doing is from the Ruach HaChedosh Adonai(Holy Spirit of Adonai) and no one else.

You seem to be missing the whole point here. You are making up your own definitions based on your own interpretations of various things. But that's not the point here.

The point here is that Jesus was being accused of conducting his magic by the power of Satan. And Jesus defensive argument was that he does good works and therefore his power cannot have come from Satan because a house divided against itself would fall.

If that's a valid defense for Jesus, then it must be a valid defense for all who do good works. And if it's not a valid defense for all who do good works, then neither could it be a valid defense for Jesus.

So, in other words, if it works for Jesus it necessarily must also work for Wiccans. It can't be a valid defensive argument for Jesus but not for Wiccans.

[czyz]

LOL...witchcraft as it's traditionally defined is make believe. It doesn't exist and it never has existed. It is a fairy tale. It is a myth. It has no basis in reality. So why does this thread exist????

[Divine Insight]

LOL...witchcraft as it's traditionally defined is make believe. It doesn't exist and it never has existed. It is a fairy tale. It is a myth. It has no basis in reality. So why does this thread exist????

Traditionally defined?

Traditionally defined by whom?

Jesus was said to cast demons out of people. He supposedly cast seven demons out of Mary Magdalene alone.

So why does Debating Christianity exist?

[czyz]

Divine Insight said...

Traditionally defined?

Traditionally defined by whom?

Jesus was said to cast demons out of people. He supposedly cast seven demons out of Mary Magdalene alone.

So why does Debating Christianity exist?

The bible says a lot of things that are not true. If you know of any verifiable examples of witchcraft please share them. Pointing to Iron Age writings of superstitious and ignorant people does not persuade me that witchcraft exists.

[Divine Insight]

Divine Insight said...

Traditionally defined?

Traditionally defined by whom?

Jesus was said to cast demons out of people. He supposedly cast seven demons out of Mary Magdalene alone.

So why does Debating Christianity exist?

The bible says a lot of things that are not true. If you know of any verifiable examples of witchcraft please share them. Pointing to Iron Age writings of superstitious and ignorant people does not persuade me that witchcraft exists.

I don't believe in demons that possess people. I was just saying that Jesus performed witchcraft according to the Bible and people are still debating that one today.

For me "casting demons out" is a metaphor for psychic transformations that are indeed quite possible even in a purely secular world. We are psychic beings. Where I'm using the term "psychic" to simply refer to the mind (not to circus mediums).

And change in our mental perspective is a change in our psyche. And that sort of "sorcery" is indeed quite possible. In fact, psychiatrists deal with these sort of issues everyday.

This is why I asked who's defining "witchcraft"?

Do you mean the kind of witchcraft that has become popular in fairytales and Hollywood? Or are you talking about the serious practice of psychic transformations? One is impossible, the other is actually pretty mundane and practical, yet few people seem to truly understand it.