"The Creationists" - by Ronald L. Numbers

[USIncognito]

One of the most fascinating books I've read on Creationism/evolution had nothing to do with the evidences for either, but was a historical survey of the Creationist movement starting with the anti-Darwinists in the mid-1800s, working it's way through the "Godfather" of modern Creationism - 7th Day Adventist George McCready Price, leading up to the late 1980s with the Evangelicals of the ICR and CRS basically hijacking Price's arguments and recasting them without Adventist language.

IIRC (my copy is in my car and I'm in my apartment) was printed in 1992, and I purchased my copy in 1996, but the observations offered about Creationism and it's response to evolution in the 1880s, 1920s and 1960s sound awfully familiar to the same arguments I see posted to the Internet today. About the only thing Creationists are likely to post are ID based since the "Wedge Strategy" hadn't been formulated when the book was written.

There are reviews on Amazon.com and I'm sure other places if you can't get access to a copy, but while Numbers' slant is obvious, it's amazingly unbiased look at the Creationist movement that I'd recommend for people on either side of the debate.

Anyone else read it?

[McCulloch]

I have moved this to "General Chat" since there is no clear question for debate.

USIncognito, this sounds like an interesting book sort of the evolution of creationism. Do you know if there are any more recent updates?

[USIncognito]

I have moved this to "General Chat" since there is no clear question for debate.

Gah! I keep forgetting that forum is specificially for debate and not discussion of the issue.

USIncognito, this sounds like an interesting book sort of the evolution of creationism. Do you know if there are any more recent updates?

Here's the Amazon.com link. Since little has been added to the Creationist position since publication (or since Price's day for that matter) except ID, I think Numbers' decision not to publish later editions with an appendix is correct. He did publish another book, which I have not read, on the influence of Darwin in America

The pure history of science aspects aside, one of the great ironies about the evolution of Creationism is that many have started to admit that, once they finally realize the massive numbers of species present today and in the fossil record, they have to embrace a sort of hyper-evolution embracing "antelope kind" producing Dik-Dik's, Springboks, Pronghorns, Okapis, Elands, Moose and Giraffes in 4,000ish years.

From fixity of species to evolutionary diversity in times Darwinian models would find incredible in less than 200 years... at this rate of progress, I figure it's only 200 more years until they all become TEs.

[Cathar1950]

This sounds interesting I will have to look up some books I have on Creationist. There are some interesting histories. It runs along side Evangelicals and Fundamentalist lines and their history in intertwined.
the 1800's, I think along with Milleniumist .

[USIncognito]

This sounds interesting I will have to look up some books I have on Creationist. There are some interesting histories. It runs along side Evangelicals and Fundamentalist lines and their history in intertwined.
the 1800's, I think along with Milleniumist .

Exactly. Price and his fellow 7th Day Adventists are the quintessential millenialist sect. We're now about 175 years beyond the "immenent" return they predicted, but they still are a viable denomination.

[Cathar1950]

With Paul you have about 2000 years late. I think he even blamed some of the deaths on unbelief as time went on Jesus didn't return and believers died. They didn't do the wine and bread right or something.

[Rob]

I have the book in my library, and it is a great read and reference for addressing the whole creationism-evolution debate.

I loved it. I am reading a most interesting book on evo-devo right now called "The ..." oops, hold on ...

[Rob]

"The ..."

Changing Role of the Embryo in Evolutionary Thought.

Ok, I must confess, I need fifteen posts so I can pm. Hope I didn't break any rules

[USIncognito]

Sounds interesting.

One I completed about a month ago, and quote mines started showing up in C & E debate recently was "What it means to be 98% Chimpanzee" by Jonathan Marks. It was a maddening read since Marks challenged a lot of assumptions about the value of genetic evidence connecting humans and chimpanzees as closely as some would make us out to be.

He was quote mined despite the fact that the introduction starts with the party line (humans and chimps shared a common ancestor about 7 million years ago) and the book is best summarized as arguing "humans aren't hairless chimpanzees, and chimps aren't hairy humans."

I picked "What it means..." up serendipitously while looking for some light reading when I was taking a vacation flight, and I'm glad I got lucky. It's a great read.

Actually, as long as this thread is mutating into one about books.

- The Ancestors Tale by Richard Dawkins
- Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond

I hadn't read a book in years when I sat down with The Ancestors Tale, and G,G & S is my favorite book of all time at this point.

[McCulloch]

Changing Role of the Embryo in Evolutionary Thought.

Ok, I must confess, I need fifteen posts so I can pm. Hope I didn't break any rules

This thread is "General Chat". Therefore discussions can and do wander off topic. That is what General Chat is for.

BTW, I enjoyed Jared Diamond's "The Third Chimp".