If I can't forgive you, should I leave this place?

[99percentatheism]

I have been here for quite some time now. I claim to be a Christian. That declaration means something. I have seen what I would define as abject unfairness to Christians here. Unless of course you are a liberal or progressive religionist.

The Orthodox, historic voice of Christian reality is so attacked here, (and that attack seems welcomed and encouraged by the "powers that be" here), I see hardly a way to forgive the authorties for allowing the persecutions to continue without cease.

Where are these so-called civil and respectful, intelligent, thoughtful and challenging discussions? It is a Christian-bash fest here. If you do not kowtow to progressive and humanistic morality, that attack is simply like a pack of wolves on a lamb. And Darwin forbid if the lamb fights back in kind.

If "I" cannot find a way to forgive the attacks on me over and over and over again, should I leave, or continue being denigrated in concert from so many different yet connected sides?

What good is a so-called "debate" when there is none?

[micatala]

99, "persecution" is what evangelicals are doing to LGBT people in Uganda.

I would certainly agree that actions that effect people's lives are what real persecution is. Having people vociferously oppose your views on an internet forum is not really persecution, although most people would rather not be called nasty names, even digitally and anonymously.

Your beliefs being criticized and scrutinized on an Internet forum dedicated to religious debate is decidedly not persecution. Early Roman Christians, who actually did face physical violence for their religious beliefs, would scoff at your whining about "persecution" on a message board.

If you want to experience real persecution of Christians, go to Iran and start to proselytize about your faith -- you'll see what it means to be persecuted then. But please, please save your sanctimonious whining about being "persecuted" because some here, on a debate forum, have had the gall to call you on your nonsense.
You -- a presumably white, straight, Christian male living in America -- don't know what persecution is. You've never experienced it. You've been in a position of absolute privilege your entire life, and now that people you don't like are beginning to sniff equality, you're whining about how your rights are being violated.

I am coming off the moderating team, and so will take that hat off. I would say these comments are 'mildly personal,' in that you are accusing another member of 'whining' and speculate on him being white, straight, etc. Given the context of the thread, and that the author specifically refers to himself and his treatment, perhaps that is within bounds. Personally, I think debate is better without even this level of personal commentary.

On the other hand, addressing a person's stated beliefs and characteristics as part of addressing their arguments, especially when based on those beliefs or characteristics, seems to me to be appropriate, if done civilly.

[AdHoc]

I have been here for quite some time now. I claim to be a Christian. That declaration means something. I have seen what I would define as abject unfairness to Christians here. Unless of course you are a liberal or progressive religionist.

The Orthodox, historic voice of Christian reality is so attacked here, (and that attack seems welcomed and encouraged by the "powers that be" here), I see hardly a way to forgive the authorties for allowing the persecutions to continue without cease.

Where are these so-called civil and respectful, intelligent, thoughtful and challenging discussions? It is a Christian-bash fest here. If you do not kowtow to progressive and humanistic morality, that attack is simply like a pack of wolves on a lamb. And Darwin forbid if the lamb fights back in kind.

If "I" cannot find a way to forgive the attacks on me over and over and over again, should I leave, or continue being denigrated in concert from so many different yet connected sides?

What good is a so-called "debate" when there is none?

99,
I can't say I've been persecuted on this forum for being a Christian but I have seen Christianity disrespected and Christ scorned. I don't consider those the same thing and honestly, the latter offends me more.

If we are persecuted for Christ shouldn't we rejoice? Western society in general, does not respect Christianity in general and that is likely the fault of western Christians in general. True persecution for us exists in places like Iran and North Korea.

Here we are usually only mocked but to answer your question yes you should forgive them. 70 x 70 times. And not only that, pray for God to forgive and bless them.

Don't leave, there are fewer and fewer of us here every day.

AdHoc

[Divine Insight]

Don't leave, there are fewer and fewer of us here every day.

I personally feel that this is a sentiment that actually causes "Christians" to be frowned upon by non-Christians.

In other words, the whole idea is that just because someone claims to be a "Christian" that makes them "one of us". Like as if it's a war and as long as someone claims to be on the "right side" they will be supported, even though their views may not be the same as the views of other Christians.

It reminds me of the song, "Onward Christian Solider".

But the truth is that many Christians do not agree with each other on many issues. In fact, back when I was a Christian I saw my greatest adversaries as being other so-called "Christians", especially the hardcore fundamentalist types and evangelical extremists.

Christians try to support their religion by supporting just anyone who calls themselves a "Christian". And this often leads to supporting people that they genuinely do not agree with on many levels.

Atheists argue that this is actually a dangerous "sheep mentality" where people just support anything at all that is being held up in the name of Christianity or Jesus. Of course, we know that they will ultimately argue with each other in the end as the myriad of disagreeing denominations vividly demonstrate.

Because of the very nature of Christianity it incites an "Us against Them" mentality. Is that what Jesus had in mind?

Division among people in his name? Siding in a holy war against those who don't believe that Jesus was the Christ?

From my perspective this is the downfall of Christianity. It's the greatest problem and weakness of the religion.

Besides, Ad Hoc, do you really want Christianity to be represented by someone who goes around basically putting down non-Christians for their refusal to believe?

Is that the type of Christianity that you support?

[AdHoc]

Don't leave, there are fewer and fewer of us here every day.

I personally feel that this is a sentiment that actually causes "Christians" to be frowned upon by non-Christians.

In other words, the whole idea is that just because someone claims to be a "Christian" that makes them "one of us". Like as if it's a war and as long as someone claims to be on the "right side" they will be supported, even though their views may not be the same as the views of other Christians.

It reminds me of the song, "Onward Christian Solider".

I'm sorry I didn't intend it that way. I meant it as an encouragement to 99 because I consider him my brother in Christ.

But the truth is that many Christians do not agree with each other on many issues. In fact, back when I was a Christian I saw my greatest adversaries as being other so-called "Christians", especially the hardcore fundamentalist types and evangelical extremists.

Good point. Many Christians are divided but the church will be blessed when it dwells together in unity. Ironically, persecution is commonly the catalyst for this unity.

Christians try to support their religion by supporting just anyone who calls themselves a "Christian". And this often leads to supporting people that they genuinely do not agree with on many levels.

Atheists argue that this is actually a dangerous "sheep mentality" where people just support anything at all that is being held up in the name of Christianity or Jesus. Of course, we know that they will ultimately argue with each other in the end as the myriad of disagreeing denominations vividly demonstrate.

I know the cure for that ailment but western churches seem to be more about personal entertainment than biblical truth. This present disco used to be a cute cathedral.

Because of the very nature of Christianity it incites an "Us against Them" mentality. Is that what Jesus had in mind?

I don't think He desired it but He surely predicted that His followers would be hated.

Division among people in his name? Siding in a holy war against those who don't believe that Jesus was the Christ?

We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against evil spiritual powers. Our fight is not against non-believers we're fighting for them.

From my perspective this is the downfall of Christianity. It's the greatest problem and weakness of the religion.

Besides, Ad Hoc, do you really want Christianity to be represented by someone who goes around basically putting down non-Christians for their refusal to believe?

Is that the type of Christianity that you support?

Definitely not. I believe Christians are fools.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to 99percentatheism]

I have been here for quite some time now. I claim to be a Christian. That declaration means something. I have seen what I would define as abject unfairness to Christians here. Unless of course you are a liberal or progressive religionist.

The Orthodox, historic voice of Christian reality is so attacked here, (and that attack seems welcomed and encouraged by the "powers that be" here), I see hardly a way to forgive the authorties for allowing the persecutions to continue without cease.

Can you not look in the mirror when you make these charges? There is evil being meted out to Christians? "Christian reality" is being attacked? This amounts to persecution? For many centuries the act of disputing Christian dogma was a good way to die a very horrible death. Zero dissension was tolerated. Christian missionaries covered the globe, making every effort to destroy native beliefs by any means possible, and to replace them with Christianity. And yet you have the nerve to suggest that those who disagree with you are "evil," and that exposing your assumptions, twisted facts and empty claims for the nonsense that they always have been amounts to persecution. Well poor you! How dare other people reach conclusions that differ from yours. How dare they assert that your beliefs are nonsense, and then proceed to show you exactly why, point by point. And, horror of horrors, how dare they actually stand up and effectively dismantle your entire personal world view. When you become king/dictator of the world, I can only imagine how we will suffer. Your fury and frustration stem from the fact that your beliefs simply do not hold up to factual evidence, or to the light of reason or logic when thoroughly scrutinized. Believers on this forum inevitably end up lashing out in fury and frustration, just as you are doing here, while non believers inevitably continue to become even more smug and self satisfied. There is a reason for that. It's the inevitable and ongoing result of your side continuously losing the argument. Which is the whole point of debate... to expose an insupportable argument.

[AdHoc]

[Replying to 99percentatheism]

I have been here for quite some time now. I claim to be a Christian. That declaration means something. I have seen what I would define as abject unfairness to Christians here. Unless of course you are a liberal or progressive religionist.

The Orthodox, historic voice of Christian reality is so attacked here, (and that attack seems welcomed and encouraged by the "powers that be" here), I see hardly a way to forgive the authorties for allowing the persecutions to continue without cease.

Can you not look in the mirror when you make these charges? There is evil being meted out to Christians? "Christian reality" is being attacked? This amounts to persecution? For many centuries the act of disputing Christian dogma was a good way to die a very horrible death. Zero dissension was tolerated. Christian missionaries covered the globe, making every effort to destroy native beliefs by any means possible, and to replace them with Christianity. And yet you have the nerve to suggest that those who disagree with you are "evil," and that exposing your assumptions, twisted facts and empty claims for the nonsense that they always have been amounts to persecution. Well poor you! How dare other people reach conclusions that differ from yours. How dare they assert that your beliefs are nonsense, and then proceed to show you exactly why, point by point. And, horror of horrors, how dare they actually stand up and effectively dismantle your entire personal world view. When you become king/dictator of the world, I can only imagine how we will suffer. Your fury and frustration stem from the fact that your beliefs simply do not hold up to factual evidence, or to the light of reason or logic when thoroughly scrutinized. Believers on this forum inevitably end up lashing out in fury and frustration, just as you are doing here, while non believers inevitably continue to become even more smug and self satisfied. There is a reason for that. It's the inevitable and ongoing result of your side continuously losing the argument. Which is the whole point of debate... to expose an insupportable argument.

Wow that escalated quickly... I'm going to guess that you are tired of the nonsense.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to AdHoc]

Wow that escalated quickly... I'm going to guess that you are tired of the nonsense.

I truly am "Tired of the Nonsense." I'm tired of being subjected to the ancient superstition and nonsense of ignorant earlier ages which should have been discarded long ago and which has no place here, in the 21st century. I'm tired of bigoted and closed minded believers in this ancient superstition and nonsense banding together and using their personal superstitious belief systems as political muscle in an attempt to determine and decide how others should live their lives, or to make decisions about how others should feel. People find happiness in different ways. Good for them! I'm tired of bigoted and closed minded believers in ancient superstitions declaring all moral authority for themselves. As if it takes 10 commandments and the various homilies attributed to Jesus to understand what is right, and what is wrong. If each of us simply treated each other of us with the same respect and dignity that we would ourselves wish to be treated with, then that is the only moral imperative that any of us needs to work within. If you wouldn't want it done to you, THEN DON'T DO IT TO ANYONE ELSE! That covers everything needed concerning morality. If everyone lived by this standard all of the time, THERE WOULD BE NO CONFLICT. And for those who would seek to impose their own personal world view and concept of morality on the rest of society, do not then cry foul and chose to be offended when the rest of society chooses to stand and smack you right between the eyes for doing so. Because you asked for it!

Believers feel that they have every moral and legal right to impose their personal world view on the rest of society. Which they do within the established laws of our society. That believers should then cry foul however, and fling charges of "evil" and "persecution" when those who disagree with them have the temerity to stand and oppose them is frankly galling. When one chooses to attempt to impose their point of view upon the rest of us they become fair game. Get use to it. If 99percentatheism wants to pout and leave the forum that is his decision. Life will continue for the rest of us.

[olavisjo]

.

I'm tired of being subjected to the ancient superstition and nonsense of ignorant earlier ages which should have been discarded long ago and which has no place here, in the 21st century.

In one breath you tell us you are tired of the ignorance, and then in the very next breath you lay this bit of ignorance at our feet...

If each of us simply treated each other of us with the same respect and dignity that we would ourselves wish to be treated with, then that is the only moral imperative that any of us needs to work within. If you wouldn't want it done to you, THEN DON'T DO IT TO ANYONE ELSE! That covers everything needed concerning morality. If everyone lived by this standard all of the time, THERE WOULD BE NO CONFLICT.

This is not reality, humans will never be like this, you are chasing a fairy tale if you think this is reality. Take a number and join the club, we call ourselves the hopeless optimists.

[AdHoc]

[Replying to AdHoc]

Wow that escalated quickly... I'm going to guess that you are tired of the nonsense.

I truly am "Tired of the Nonsense." I'm tired of being subjected to the ancient superstition and nonsense of ignorant earlier ages which should have been discarded long ago and which has no place here, in the 21st century. I'm tired of bigoted and closed minded believers in this ancient superstition and nonsense banding together and using their personal superstitious belief systems as political muscle in an attempt to determine and decide how others should live their lives, or to make decisions about how others should feel. People find happiness in different ways. Good for them! I'm tired of bigoted and closed minded believers in ancient superstitions declaring all moral authority for themselves. As if it takes 10 commandments and the various homilies attributed to Jesus to understand what is right, and what is wrong. If each of us simply treated each other of us with the same respect and dignity that we would ourselves wish to be treated with, then that is the only moral imperative that any of us needs to work within. If you wouldn't want it done to you, THEN DON'T DO IT TO ANYONE ELSE! That covers everything needed concerning morality. If everyone lived by this standard all of the time, THERE WOULD BE NO CONFLICT. And for those who would seek to impose their own personal world view and concept of morality on the rest of society, do not then cry foul and chose to be offended when the rest of society chooses to stand and smack you right between the eyes for doing so. Because you asked for it!

Believers feel that they have every moral and legal right to impose their personal world view on the rest of society. Which they do within the established laws of our society. That believers should then cry foul however, and fling charges of "evil" and "persecution" when those who disagree with them have the temerity to stand and oppose them is frankly galling. When one chooses to attempt to impose their point of view upon the rest of us they become fair game. Get use to it. If 99percentatheism wants to pout and leave the forum that is his decision. Life will continue for the rest of us.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 28 by olavisjo]

If each of us simply treated each other of us with the same respect and dignity that we would ourselves wish to be treated with, then that is the only moral imperative that any of us needs to work within. If you wouldn't want it done to you, THEN DON'T DO IT TO ANYONE ELSE! That covers everything needed concerning morality. If everyone lived by this standard all of the time, THERE WOULD BE NO CONFLICT.

This is not reality, humans will never be like this, you are chasing a fairy tale if you think this is reality. Take a number and join the club, we call ourselves the hopeless optimists.

Not really all THAT much of an optimist, are you! Suppose, rather than being indoctrinated with stories of invisible friends and terrifying demons, children were brought up by their parents and consistently taught in their school civics classes that all human beings have value and dignity, and that the goal of each of us should be to treat others with the same respect and dignity as we would ourselves wish to be treated with. Does this REALLY seem so much more impossible to subscribe to throughout one's life then stories of devils and flying reanimated corpses? I'm talking about realistic goals that COULD be realistically achieved. Consider the possibility of a society in which going to jail for breaking the rules and infringing upon the rights of others was an enduring mark of shame, rather than a fast track to street cred. All because the society not only bought into the value of the golden rule, but then made a concerted effort as a society to see that THIS idea was instilled into the minds of each new generation of the society's children. Rather than stories of flying reanimated corpses and the horrors of hell.