If I can't forgive you, should I leave this place?

[99percentatheism]

I have been here for quite some time now. I claim to be a Christian. That declaration means something. I have seen what I would define as abject unfairness to Christians here. Unless of course you are a liberal or progressive religionist.

The Orthodox, historic voice of Christian reality is so attacked here, (and that attack seems welcomed and encouraged by the "powers that be" here), I see hardly a way to forgive the authorties for allowing the persecutions to continue without cease.

Where are these so-called civil and respectful, intelligent, thoughtful and challenging discussions? It is a Christian-bash fest here. If you do not kowtow to progressive and humanistic morality, that attack is simply like a pack of wolves on a lamb. And Darwin forbid if the lamb fights back in kind.

If "I" cannot find a way to forgive the attacks on me over and over and over again, should I leave, or continue being denigrated in concert from so many different yet connected sides?

What good is a so-called "debate" when there is none?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 29 by AdHoc]

I'm sorry that happened to you.

It's been happening to all of us for centuries. Centuries of indoctrination and brain washing and thought control... not to mention physical intimidation when deemed necessary. It's only been in recent times that it has become safe enough for those who disagree to stand up and say exactly and in precise detail why we disagree.

[Divine Insight]

That believers should then cry foul however, and fling charges of "evil" and "persecution" when those who disagree with them have the temerity to stand and oppose them is frankly galling.

Exactly.

And like you had said earlier this is nothing other than a display of frustration by the person who can't support their own claims.

The "fall back" of just calling people "evil" or screaming "foul" or "disrespect" for their views is absolute nonsense.

The way I look at it, the Bible is "Open Game" for all of humanity. And the reason that it's open game for all of humanity is precisely because it makes accusations against all of humanity. It proclaims that all men are sinners who are in the doghouse with a supposedly jealous angry God, and that it's their own fault for being in this situation.

IMHO that very charge is absolute hogwash.

And voicing my views of why I believe it to have no credibility at all is a perfectly legitimate stance for me to take, because those charges are being made against all humans, and I happen to be a human. Therefore I have a right to reject those charges as being utterly absurd.

When someone like 99 comes along, all this amounts to is 99 wanting to claim personal insult and injury because I don't believe in some utterly stupid ancient fables.

That's absurd.

It's those hideous fables that I am condemning as being absolutely false.

This really has absolutely nothing at all to do with 99. He didn't write these fables, and he didn't make the original claims. Apparently all he's done is accepted them for himself and then becomes upset that other people aren't also accepting these degrading accusation.

No way am I going to believe in ancient fables that proclaim that I'm an innately evil person who is so disgusting that my creator had to have his only begotten son nailed to a pole to pay for my disgusting behavior.

That is not only utterly absurd, but its an extreme insult to me as an individual. Christianity is a highly insulting religion.

And why in the world would I ever want to believe as a matter of faith that such a negative and disgusting accusation were true? I'd have to be a lunatic to seriously want Christianity to be true.

Nothing could be greater news than to learn the Christianity is a totally false man-made superstitious cult.

Moreover, if Christianity would happen to be true, I would not only be disgusted and depressed with myself and all of humanity, but I would be disgusted and depressed with our creator as well.

In other words, "Nothing Good" could come out of Christianity. Even being "saved" from this hideous situation would not be a positive thing. It would still be a hideous and pathetic situation.

Who, in their right mind, would want to go to some heaven where the only reason they were admitted in is because they accepted having their Creator's Son nailed to a pole to pay for their hideous and hopeless evil nature?

I wouldn't even want to go to a heaven under that situation. That would be the worse nightmare I can possibly imagine.

Any God who couldn't create things in a way where we could earn the right to be there via our own merit, is no God at all IMHO.

Moreover, it's absurd to claim that we're guilty before we were even old enough to understand anything. The whole religion is as absurd as can be, IMHO.

And why 99 should take personal exception to my view is beyond me, he most certainly didn't create this religion.

My objection is with the Bible, not with him.

[AdHoc]

[Replying to post 29 by AdHoc]

I'm sorry that happened to you.

It's been happening to all of us for centuries. Centuries of indoctrination and brain washing and thought control... not to mention physical intimidation when deemed necessary. It's only been in recent times that it has become safe enough for those who disagree to stand up and say exactly and in precise detail why we disagree.

Do you believe people who have held positions of religious power have a monopoly on indoctrination, brain-washing, thought control and persecution?

[olavisjo]

.

Not really all THAT much of an optimist, are you!

My own heart tells me what evil is inside of men.

Suppose, rather than being indoctrinated with stories of invisible friends and terrifying demons, children were brought up by their parents and consistently taught in their school civics classes that all human beings have value and dignity, and that the goal of each of us should be to treat others with the same respect and dignity as we would ourselves wish to be treated with. Does this REALLY seem so much impossible to subscribe to throughout one's life then stories of devils and flying reanimated corpses? I'm talking about realistic goals that COULD be realistically achieved. Consider the possibility of a society in which going to jail for breaking the rules and infringing upon the rights of others was an enduring mark of shame, rather than a fast track to street cred. All because the society not only bought into the value of the golden rule, but then made a concerted effort as a society to see that THIS idea was instilled into the minds of each new generation of the society's children. Rather than stories of flying reanimated corpses and the horrors of hell.

We have heard this before...

• A better and peaceful world is possible — a world where people and nature come before profits. That’s socialism. That’s our vision. We are the Communist Party USA.
  The constant battles over issues large and small are where workers learn the lesson that more fundamental changes are necessary and that people need socialism to have a truly humane society.

http://salsa3.salsalabs.com/o/51018/p/s ... e_KEY=7847

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to olavisjo]

We have heard this before...
A better and peaceful world is possible — a world where people and nature come before profits. That’s socialism. That’s our vision. We are the Communist Party USA.
The constant battles over issues large and small are where workers learn the lesson that more fundamental changes are necessary and that people need socialism to have a truly humane society.

No one said a word about profits, did they! I merely suggested that teaching our children to respect each other and to be good people is more likely to produce better long term results then filling their heads with stories about flying corpses and evil devils. You immediately see Communist conspiracies. In case you haven't been paying attention, Communism died a couple of decades ago. As long as there are people who choose to gobble up Glen Beck's insane droppings we will live in a world of fear and hatred, not just for our fellow man, but for our own countrymen. But keep it up. The best thing that ever happened to the left was when the far right began the process of openly exposing themselves in public for all to see.

[olavisjo]

.

I merely suggested that teaching our children to respect each other and to be good people is more likely to produce better long term results then filling their heads with stories about flying corpses and evil devils.

As long as men are men, women are women we will be doomed to find someone to hate. All the rose colored glasses in the world are not going to change anything. You are not the first one to suggest...

[youtube][/youtube]

And you are not the first one to think that "it is different now, our way will work even if everyone else failed, all we have to do is defeat the _________ and all will be well".

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 33 by AdHoc]

Do you believe people who have held positions of religious power have a monopoly on indoctrination, brain-washing, thought control and persecution?

The overwhelming majority of people tend to become exactly what their parents tell them that they are. Which is why areas of the world tend to be overwhelmingly Muslim, or Christian, or Hindu, etc. Disappointing one's own parents is a very difficult thing to do. In some parts of the world, where children are considered personal property, it carries a death sentence. I was raised Pentecostal by parents who were Eisenhower Republicans. By the time I was 12 I knew I was a Democrat. By the time I turned 13 I had announced that I was an atheist. I know I am an anomaly simply based upon the fact that I didn't know anyone else at the time who did that. I have always thought for myself and stuck to my guns when I believed I was right. Not that it was easy. Did I disappoint my parents? NO! Eventually I converted them to my point of view. My arguments overcame theirs, as I was always sure they would. Because I had come to my own conclusions independently, and their arguments had never really been thought through. They were the result of indoctrination by their own parents, much as most people are. Have I indoctrinated my own children? I in fact told them nothing at all until they began to ask me questions of their own volition, at which time I expressed my views on the subjects. My now grown children were left to make up their own minds. Neither of them is religious at this point, but they will ultimately believe what they chose to believe. Because children are NOT personal property, nor are they wind-up automatons, required to believe what their parents order them to believe. They either have or will reach their own conclusions, which is all I could ask.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 36 by olavisjo]

And you are not the first one to think that "it is different now, our way will work even if everyone else failed, all we have to do is defeat the _________ and all will be well".

That would label me as an optimist though, would it not? It's a label that I can live comfortably with. Yes, I think things can get better. They have been so far.

[AdHoc]

[Replying to post 33 by AdHoc]

Do you believe people who have held positions of religious power have a monopoly on indoctrination, brain-washing, thought control and persecution?

The overwhelming majority of people tend to become exactly what their parents tell them that they are. Which is why areas of the world tend to be overwhelmingly Muslim, or Christian, or Hindu, etc. Disappointing one's own parents is a very difficult thing to do. In some parts of the world, where children are considered personal property, it carries a death sentence. I was raised Pentecostal by parents who were Eisenhower Republicans. By the time I was 12 I knew I was a Democrat. By the time I turned 13 I had announced that I was an atheist. I know I am an anomaly simply based upon the fact that I didn't know anyone else at the time who did that. I have always thought for myself and stuck to my guns when I believed I was right. Not that it was easy. Did I disappoint my parents? NO! Eventually I converted them to my point of view. My arguments overcame theirs, as I was always sure they would. Because I had come to my own conclusions independently, and their arguments had never really been thought through. They were the result of indoctrination by their own parents, much as most people are. Have I indoctrinated my own children? I in fact told them nothing at all until they began to ask me questions of their own volition, at which time I expressed my views on the subjects. My now grown children were left to make up their own minds. Neither of them is religious at this point, but they will ultimately believe what they chose to believe. Because children are NOT personal property, nor are they wind-up automatons, required to believe what their parents order them to believe. They either have or will reach their own conclusions, which is all I could ask.

I wouldn't say you are an anomaly since atheism is on the rise and less and less people are Christian in the west. If we all believed exactly as our parents you would see the opposite effect.

I don't think it is a good thing for you to not teach your children what you believe but maybe your timing was good.

In this society you are not the parent anymore. Miley Cyrus and Kanye are. The media and the internet are their schoolmasters.

There will always be people in power and people who are controlled and even oppressed by power. Power is shifting to atheists and people who do not view Christians in a positive light.

History tells us this is a good thing for Christianity.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to AdHoc]

I wouldn't say you are an anomaly since atheism is on the rise and less and less people are Christian in the west. If we all believed exactly as our parents you would see the opposite effect.

I became convinced that I must be an atheist when I was about 13, simply because I wasn't buying any of the Christian story I was being fed. This was circa 1961 or so, and being an atheist was very lonely concept in 1961. I had heard of atheism and knew what the word meant, but had never met a single other atheist. Nor would I until well after I began college, which occurred in 1966. Even then, there just we not many openly avowed atheists about. But you are right about atheism, or at least open skepticism, being on the rise today. Today I am surrounded by people who hold no religious beliefs. Fifty years ago I was the Lone Ranger.

I don't think it is a good thing for you to not teach your children what you believe but maybe your timing was good.

My children are now both in their 30's. I specifically chose not to indoctrinate them into any point of view until they were old enough to become curious on their own. At that point we examined the issue.

In this society you are not the parent anymore. Miley Cyrus and Kanye are. The media and the internet are their schoolmasters.

If I taught my children anything, it was they should always be skeptical, especially of unbelievable claims, and to learn to think for themselves. But young people have always liked to feel that they fit in with their peers, so they follow trends. Fads come and go. Except for Beatlemania of course.

There will always be people in power and people who are controlled and even oppressed by power. Power is shifting to atheists and people who do not view Christians in a positive light.

Someone has to be in charge. More and more civilization has been moving in the direction of rule by popular opinion and away from the rule of the privileged. Right now those with the money are still in charge and they have found the religious to be the easiest bloc to control. But even the very rich are now required to use vast amounts of their own wealth in an attempt to direct popular opinion in their favor. The internet is proving hard to control. Truth and reason have a way of becoming popular opinion when ways can't be found to suppress them.

History tells us this is a good thing for Christianity.

Christians do love the role of the underdog, that is true. In truth Christians were really only the underdogs for the first three centuries of their existence. Christians have held the west in an iron grip of their religious doctrine since the fourth century. To hear them tell it though, no one has been more persecuted then the poor beleaguered Christians over the last 2,000 years. What a crock! I'm certain that the Jewish people, for a start, can make a pretty convincing counter argument to that nonsense.