Another question for the Jewish practicioners amoung us,

[Elijah John]

I have always admired Judaism for the thoughtful interpretations of Scripture, the teachings of absolute monotheism, and the elevation or actions and attitudes over belief. In general, the premium Jews tend to put on Reason and learning.

I have been reading a book by Trude Weiss-Morarin entitled "Judaism and Christianity, the differences"

She speaks of the Eternal Torah, and states that it is against Judiasm that ANY of the Torah given to Moses should be changed, added to or diminished, modified in any way.

So if I am understanding her right, does that include the sanction of stoning Sabbath breakers to death? Is that one of the 613 laws of Judaism? (Do I have the number right?)

I find it hard to rationalize or spiritualize that law.(If it is a law) Or to even read it symbolically.

Could anyone clarify this for me? Give me a deeper meaning or clear up my misunderstanding?

[Goat]

I have always admired Judaism for the thoughtful interpretations of Scripture, the teachings of absolute monotheism, and the elevation or actions and attitudes over belief. In general, the premium Jews tend to put on Reason and learning.

I have been reading a book by Trude Weiss-Morarin entitled "Judaism and Christianity, the differences"

She speaks of the Eternal Torah, and states that it is against Judiasm that ANY of the Torah given to Moses should be changed, added to or diminished, modified in any way.

So if I am understanding her right, does that include the sanction of stoning Sabbath breakers to death? Is that one of the 613 laws of Judaism? (Do I have the number right?)

I find it hard to rationalize or spiritualize that law.(If it is a law) Or to even read it symbolically.

Could anyone clarify this for me? Give me a deeper meaning or clear up my misunderstanding?

Well, there is 'changing the Torah', and examining and interpreting on how those phrases should be implemented. The use of the terms 'death be upon them', and stoning were taken to be an emphases on just how important it is, not literal , even before the second temple.

You have to remember that.. well, a lot of those restrictions can't even be followed anymore, since they have to do with the temple in Jerusalem, and that hasn't existed in almost 2000 years.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by Goat]

But was that death sentence literal in Moses day? Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not advocating a return to that kind of punishment if it was, and I like what you say about it being a symbolic way of emphasizing the importance of keeping the Sabbath, at least how it seems to be read nowadays.

But that does make sense to me, a lot of the commandments were related to the Temple when it existed, and also nowadays a Theocratic execution would be illegal in the US and other Western countries.

Thanks for your response.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 2 by Goat]

But was that death sentence literal in Moses day? Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not advocating a return to that kind of punishment if it was, and I like what you say about it being a symbolic way of emphasizing the importance of keeping the Sabbath, at least how it seems to be read nowadays.

But that does make sense to me, a lot of the commandments were related to the Temple when it existed, and also nowadays a Theocratic execution would be illegal in the US and other Western countries.

Thanks for your response.

I don't have any evidence for it being so. Then again, i don't have any evidence that the Torah was written down before the 6th century bc, which was 100's of years after the time frame Moses was thought to have existed.

When it comes to executions, the modern concept that is pushed by most Rabbi's is that the death penalty is ok in THEORY, but not so much in practice. It should be only administered if is there perfect justice, and since there is not, it should be opposed. The concept of how executions should be administered in the Jewish religion was such to make sure there is the least pain possible, and the most justice possible. The modern thinking is taking that principle a bit further, and saying 'since man can not have perfect justice, and perfect knowledge, the death penalty should be avoided. Most reform, conservative and orthodox Rabbi's agree with this.

Maimonides, a 12th century Jewish scholar stated ""It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death."

While the death penalty might be 'kosher', it is increasingly difficult to get the kind of circumstances in which it would be acceptable. Even before the destruction of the temple, to all intents and purposes the death penalty was abolished (from about 30 c.e. supposedly). I don't know how much of those claims are a reaction against the 'Christ Killer' accusations, but the tradition that was so is very old.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by Goat]

The death penalty for what? Breaking religous rules such as the Sabbath violation? I find the fact that some Rabbis even consider that OK or mandated in THEORY to be disturbing. I would have hoped they would have viewed such injunctions as coming from a primitive people who now have evolved way past that primitive mind set and become far more civilized.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 4 by Goat]

The death penalty for what? Breaking religous rules such as the Sabbath violation? I find the fact that some Rabbis even consider that OK or mandated in THEORY to be disturbing. I would have hoped they would have viewed such injunctions as coming from a primitive people who now have evolved way past that primitive mind set and become far more civilized.

For any death penalty... at all, for anything.

Now, for the sabbath, if there was the death penalty for that, there wouldn't be any Jews left!

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by Goat]

The death penalty for what? Breaking religous rules such as the Sabbath violation? I find the fact that some Rabbis even consider that OK or mandated in THEORY to be disturbing. I would have hoped they would have viewed such injunctions as coming from a primitive people who now have evolved way past that primitive mind set and become far more civilized.

For any death penalty... at all, for anything.

Now, for the sabbath, if there was the death penalty for that, there wouldn't be any Jews left!

Good point!

[Thruit]

Elijah John posted,
I have always admired Judaism for the thoughtful interpretations of Scripture, the teachings of absolute monotheism, and the elevation or actions and attitudes over belief. In general, the premium Jews tend to put on Reason and learning.
I have been reading a book by Trude Weiss-Morarin entitled "Judaism and Christianity, the differences"
She speaks of the Eternal Torah, and states that it is against Judiasm that ANY of the Torah given to Moses should be changed, added to or diminished, modified in any way.
So if I am understanding her right, does that include the sanction of stoning Sabbath breakers to death? Is that one of the 613 laws of Judaism? (Do I have the number right?)
I find it hard to rationalize or spiritualize that law.(If it is a law) Or to even read it symbolically.
Could anyone clarify this for me? Give me a deeper meaning or clear up my misunderstanding?

I'm not Jewish, but the NT says God rested the 7th day (Heb.4:4), yet Jesus said God is still working (Jn.5:17) [meaning even on the weekly Sabbath Lk.13:14].

Gods rest from the physical creation is therefore symbolic of His eternal rest (Heb.4:7-8).

Those who cannot enter the rest are unbelievers (Heb.3:19) and belief motivates action (Heb.4:11).

As faith without works is dead, so works without faith also produces death (2 Cor.11:15)

The stoning of those who transgress the Sabbath = those who attempt to enter Gods rest without faith.

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The text is not to be altered or modified in any way, and it has not been. It's meaning and application, though, are another matter.

From an old post of mine:

There are some laws that seem brutal and unreasonable given in the Torah, like the various offenses that carry the death penalty; cursing one's parents, desecrating the. Sabbath, and so on. The derivations in Halakhah of those laws are interesting; the sages loaded them down with so many layers of conditions, qualifications, exceptions, and other requirements that they were virtually never imposed.

For instance: Suppose a man were charged with cutting down a tree on the Sabbath, an unambiguous act that was supposed to be punished by stoning. Here are the conditions that must be met before that penalty was imposed:

There must be at least two witnesses, neither of whom were personally acquainted with the man, to ensure that there were no maliciously false charges at work. The man must have been warned before the fact, in precise language from the Torah, that what he was about to do was a violation of the law, including a specific warning about the consequences of doing it in graphic terms. The man must then have specifically announced his intention, not just to cut down the tree, but to violate that specific law, again using the precise words from the Torah, and he must include a description of the penalty he would be made to suffer. He must then immediately carry out the act, swinging the ax or whatever. If he stops after his statement to do anything--take a drink of water, wipe his brow, or pick up the ax before swinging it--all bets are off and the case is thrown out of court.

And what if all these conditions are fulfilled? It will come as no surprise that the man would then be declared insane and not responsible for his actions--a reasonable conclusion, considering.

There were other conditions. Even in a case of murder--virtually the only kind of case where a death sentence was ever actually imposed--if the entire assembly voted unanimously to convict, the case was thrown out; some kind of prejudice against the defendant was assumed. If anyone in the assembly was absent for any portion of the trial, the case was thrown out. If no one at all spoke in the man's defense, the case was thrown out.

And so on. The Talmud records that a court that imposed the death penalty more than once in ten years was called a "bloody-handed court."--and as far as we know, none ever was.

The ideas here are simple enough; it was deemed much more important to make sure that no injustice was done. Once again: Humans are not to discard our own intelligence and moral sense in favor of religious dogma. The text has never been changed, but WE are doubly charged with seeking JUSTICE -- Justice, justice, shall you pursue" --and not just blindly following that text.

Like you said -- reason and learning.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 2 by Goat]

But was that death sentence literal in Moses day?

I am not jewish. However, there is the account in HaTorah about the man who gathered wood on Shabbat . This was decoded by Adonai directly and was not adjudicated, however.