Messiah in the Talmud

[Thruit]

The Talmud says the Hebrew Bible depicts Messiah appearing in two different ways:

Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ass!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ass.

Rabbi Joshua quoted Daniel 7:13, where the Messiah receives a Kingdom from God.

Rabbi Joshua also quoted Zechariah 9:9, where Messiah comes to His people in humility.

According to Rabbi Joshua, the manner in which the Messiah appears depends on the conduct of the Jewish people.

Is there anything in the Hebrew Bible that indicates the manner of Messiahs coming has anything to do with Israel's behavior?

[otseng]

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[Thruit]

You have now begun arguing for the truth of Christianity on the Judaism forum. That is not appropriate, and we are done. Be well.

No where did I argue in favor of Christianity. If you look more closely, you'll find clear examples of how you use an ancient book to determine your judgement and decision when it suits you. Be blessed

[cnorman18]

You have now begun arguing for the truth of Christianity on the Judaism forum. That is not appropriate, and we are done. Be well.

No where did I argue in favor of Christianity. If you look more closely, you'll find clear examples of how you use an ancient book to determine your judgement and decision when it suits you. Be blessed

When it suits us. That is precisely my point. The "ultimate authority" in Judaism is, and always has been, human reason. We apply our collective power of logical thought and debate to everything, including the Bible itself. We have rather often revised the meaning of, and even directly overruled, the words of the Torah over the centuries.

Insisting that the authority of the Bible is the same for Christians and Jews is simply an objective falsehood, and continuing to argue that point is, without doubt, arguing in favor of Christianity. Questioning our rejection of Jesus as our Messiah, which he was not (see the thread of that title in the Judaism forum), is also arguing in favor of Christianity. So is attempting to put words in my mouth about the Messiah; our ideas about the Messiah have changed across the centuries, and one way in which they have changed is that we are no longer holding our breath, and aren't much concerned with him.

The idea of the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are so completely different that they are virtually mutually exclusive. If you want to see the differences, read that thread. Jesus, and the arguments for Jesus, are of no interest to Jews, and haven't been for around 2,000 years. Some Jews have become Christians; peace to them, and that doesn't matter. Many Christians have become Jews too. I am one of them.

I don't proselytize for my religion, nor do I call others mistaken or wrong in their beliefs. I expect the same courtesy -- and whether I receive it or not, I am not here to debate Judaism. I am here to inform about Judaism.

And with that, this conversation is at an end, as far as I am concerned.

[Thruit]

cnorman18posted,
When it suits us. That is precisely my point. The "ultimate authority" in Judaism is, and always has been, human reason.

"Human reason" of what the Bible says. In other words, interpreting the Bible, which is what anyone affiliated
with any religion based on the teachings from a tome does.

We apply our collective power of logical thought and debate to everything, including the Bible itself.

Since there are various sects within Judaism, your decisions on what the Bible says are not done as one group.

We have rather often revised the meaning of, and even directly overruled, the words of the Torah over the centuries.

Try telling that to an Orthodox rabbi, who follows halakhah and doesn't even consider converts to other denominations of Judaism as Jews.

Insisting that the authority of the Bible is the same for Christians and Jews is simply an objective falsehood...,

No it isn't, because the smallest dot of what you believe about your particular brand of Judaism is rooted from the Bible. When anyone inquires about your religious beliefs, your answer isn't that you conjured them from your mind. You point to teachings or traditions, but those tenets were interpreted from the Bible. Therefore, the Bible must at least be said to be the foundation or authority of Judaism.

...and continuing to argue that point is, without doubt, arguing in favor of Christianity.

My point was just made in the last post above and I didn't mention Christianity.

Questioning our rejection of Jesus as our Messiah, which he was not (see the thread of that title in the Judaism forum), is also arguing in favor of Christianity....

My point wasn't that "Jews don't believe in Jesus." My point was your belief that Judaism is a continually evolving religion, isn't always true.

And your assertion that Jesus "was not" the Messiah is an indictment of your claim that Judaisms authority isn't the Bible. Not because you don't have what you think are valid reasons, but because you use the Bible to support your assertion.

So is attempting to put words in my mouth about the Messiah; our ideas about the Messiah have changed across the centuries, and one way in which they have changed is that we are no longer holding our breath, and aren't much concerned with him.

That's fine, but don't pretend that because of this, you hold no rigid, unmovable beliefs about the Messiah

The idea of the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are so completely different that they are virtually mutually exclusive. If you want to see the differences, read that thread. Jesus, and the arguments for Jesus, are of no interest to Jews, and haven't been for around 2,000 years.

I've seen the argument before many times and guess what? You use the Bible as your authority..

Some Jews have become Christians; peace to them, and that doesn't matter. ...

Did you know that within certain sects of Judaism, they believe anyone born of a Jewish woman can never cease being a Jew...no matter what they believe? Also, the Jews who wrote the NT continued to think of themselves as Jews?

I don't proselytize for my religion, nor do I call others mistaken or wrong in their beliefs.

This is pure cop out and untrue, because you've already done it. Your quote above:

Questioning our rejection of Jesus as our Messiah, which he was not... is also arguing in favor of Christianity

Yet rejecting Jesus as Messiah is somehow not arguing in favor of beliefs held by Judaism.

I expect the same courtesy...

I don't think I've been discourteous toward you, unless you equate being called on a double standard discourteous.

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 14 by Thruit]

As I said back when I first posted to this thread: "As I've said many times: pick up a good book on basic Judaism and learn more about it."

I don't care to be lectured about my own religion by someone who thinks he knows more about it than I do, and in fact knows very, very little.

Be well, peace to you, and I'll not be responding further.

[The Me's]

The Talmud says the Hebrew Bible depicts Messiah appearing in two different ways:

Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ass!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ass.

Rabbi Joshua quoted Daniel 7:13, where the Messiah receives a Kingdom from God.

Rabbi Joshua also quoted Zechariah 9:9, where Messiah comes to His people in humility.

According to Rabbi Joshua, the manner in which the Messiah appears depends on the conduct of the Jewish people.

Is there anything in the Hebrew Bible that indicates the manner of Messiahs coming has anything to do with Israel's behavior?

The two rabbis lack temporal awareness.

Both verses can refer to the same messiah very easily as long as they refer to two different points in time, one referring to his arrival, the other to his victory.

[cnorman18]

The Talmud says the Hebrew Bible depicts Messiah appearing in two different ways:

Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an ass!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an ass.

Rabbi Joshua quoted Daniel 7:13, where the Messiah receives a Kingdom from God.

Rabbi Joshua also quoted Zechariah 9:9, where Messiah comes to His people in humility.

According to Rabbi Joshua, the manner in which the Messiah appears depends on the conduct of the Jewish people.

Is there anything in the Hebrew Bible that indicates the manner of Messiahs coming has anything to do with Israel's behavior?

The two rabbis lack temporal awareness.

Both verses can refer to the same messiah very easily as long as they refer to two different points in time, one referring to his arrival, the other to his victory.

Please show that the Hebrew Bible explicitly teaches that the Messiah will come twice. One would think that such an important teaching would actually appear in Tanakh, and rather prominently, as opposed to having to be inferred from a few obscure and clearly ambiguous passages -- not to mention from passages that are not, and have never been, considered "Messianic."

The larger problem with Jesus, of course, is that it is claimed that Jesus was God Himself. Such a belief is foreign to Jews, near to being blasphemous, and has no root or source whatever anywhere in the vast corpus of Jewish literature.

[The Me's]

Please show that the Hebrew Bible explicitly teaches that the Messiah will come twice. One would think that such an important teaching would actually appear in Tanakh, and rather prominently, as opposed to having to be inferred from a few obscure and clearly ambiguous passages -- not to mention from passages that are not, and have never been, considered "Messianic."

You just quoted two rabbis pointing out the two different ways the messiah will come.

Which do you choose:
1--One of the Tenakh passages is mistaken
2--One of your rabbinic predecessors is mistaken
3--The messiah comes two different ways

[cnorman18]

Please show that the Hebrew Bible explicitly teaches that the Messiah will come twice. One would think that such an important teaching would actually appear in Tanakh, and rather prominently, as opposed to having to be inferred from a few obscure and clearly ambiguous passages -- not to mention from passages that are not, and have never been, considered "Messianic."

You just quoted two rabbis pointing out the two different ways the messiah will come.

Um, no, I didn't quote them. That was Thruit, who thinks that Jews should become Christians too.

Which do you choose:
1--One of the Tenakh passages is mistaken
2--One of your rabbinic predecessors is mistaken
3--The messiah comes two different ways

Some things you clearly don't know about the Jewish religion:

1--We hold the Torah to be more authoritative and more reliable than the rest of the Hebrew Bible.
2--We know that LOTS of rabbis and sages in the Talmud made mistakes and were wrong. Did you not notice that this was a DEBATE, and these two rabbis DISAGREED about how the Messiah would show up?
3--THE "PROPHECIES" DON'T MATTER. AND NEVER DID. What's important is that the Messiah was to institute the Messianic Age, which hasn't happened. Ergo, the Messiah has not yet come. That's all we need to know, period, full stop, on the subject of whether Jesus was the Messiah. HE WASN'T, and only Jews get to make that call for Jews.
4--Whether or not Jesus was the Messiah is a trivial question compared to the claim that Jesus was GOD INCARNATE. That's WAY out of court.

You might trouble yourself to read some of my other posts on this subject. You pretty clearly think you understand the Jewish religion, when you're not within a light-year of understanding even the basics.

[The Me's]

1--We hold the Torah to be more authoritative and more reliable than the rest of the Hebrew Bible.
2--We know that LOTS of rabbis and sages in the Talmud made mistakes and were wrong. Did you not notice that this was a DEBATE, and these two rabbis DISAGREED about how the Messiah would show up?
3--THE "PROPHECIES" DON'T MATTER. AND NEVER DID. What's important is that the Messiah was to institute the Messianic Age, which hasn't happened. Ergo, the Messiah has not yet come. That's all we need to know, period, full stop, on the subject of whether Jesus was the Messiah. HE WASN'T, and only Jews get to make that call for Jews.
4--Whether or not Jesus was the Messiah is a trivial question compared to the claim that Jesus was GOD INCARNATE. That's WAY out of court.

Words are cheap. If you held the Torah to be authoritative at all, you'd reinstate the priesthood and Moses' form of government. You would stop disobeying Moses by eating passover in your own city, knowing that he claimed it should be celebrated "in the place the Lord your God will choose", ultimately Jerusalem.

I'm sorry, but Jews hold the Talmud to be more authoritative than the Torah. It's clear by the way they devote their lives to the Talmud but only courtesies to the Torah.

I don't believe you have as much authority to interpret the Tenakh as Christians do if you choose not to live by it and we do.