What is evidence for origin of Shia Islam

[Duvduv]

Many Sunnis I have spoken to claim that there is no evidence at all of any Shia Islam community as such anywhere until Ismael I created it in Iran in the 15th century based on teachings imported from Lebanon circulating among Arabs there which venerated Ali. I would go one step further and argue that in fact veneration of Ali was integrated into conventional Islam AFTER the establishment of the Quran in order to draw in smaller sects, but that the emerging Shia religion merely adopted aspects of Islam and integrated it with their Ali veneration religion.
Indeed, there is no empirical evidence for the existence of specifically Shia communities, regions, etc. Secular scholars of Islam never question or challenge any of the established assumptions about Islamic origins in general, and about Shia Islam in particular.
And where is the evidence that the Ismaili regime in Egypt was actually Shia?!

[Duvduv]

I guess some subject threads should just be terminated if in a week's time there is virtually no discussion on the thread. It looks like this forum is not interested in this thread.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

I consider it interesting, but unfortunately there is scant evidence for any of the various official lines followed by adherents. Yours (Shia integrated into Islam later) certainly sounds plausible.

[Duvduv]

Thanks. So let's discuss these things in more detail. I hope others will start to jump in too.

[Replying to Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

[Choir Loft]

Many Sunnis I have spoken to claim that there is no evidence at all of any Shia Islam community as such anywhere until Ismael I created it in Iran in the 15th century based on teachings imported from Lebanon circulating among Arabs there which venerated Ali. I would go one step further and argue that in fact veneration of Ali was integrated into conventional Islam AFTER the establishment of the Quran in order to draw in smaller sects, but that the emerging Shia religion merely adopted aspects of Islam and integrated it with their Ali veneration religion.
Indeed, there is no empirical evidence for the existence of specifically Shia communities, regions, etc. Secular scholars of Islam never question or challenge any of the established assumptions about Islamic origins in general, and about Shia Islam in particular.
And where is the evidence that the Ismaili regime in Egypt was actually Shia?!

History records the division between Sunni and Shia was a control issue, none other.

Who is going to define the Muslim religion? Who is going to define doctrine? Who is going to decide what is and is not the acceptable will of Mohammad (pbuh) as revealed in the Qur'an, the Hadith and so on. Who is in control? The issue is not religious, it's political. That is the issue.

Division began following the death of the Prophet. Abu Bakr vs. Ali bin Abu Talib and the war of division that followed provided the first division we know today as Sunni and Shia. War and covert obstructions between the two continue to the present hour.

And there is more…

We can go on to discuss Sufis, Twelvers, Qur'anists, Black Muslims (Nation of Islam, 5%, etc.) and even what we could call non-denominational Muslims.

The real issue is the free celebration of the faith as defined by the several and unique groups who choose to serve Allah in their own way - unobstructed by Shia fatwahs or Sunni arrogance.

The real issue is control.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Duvduv]

However, you have presented the TRADITIONAL Shia version of the emergence of the the so-called division. I was pointing out that there are serious questions about whether Shiism even existed before the regime in Persia of Ismael I. Sunnis argue that there is NO EVIDENCE of any Shia regimes, populations, etc. from the early period at all.

[Choir Loft]

However, you have presented the TRADITIONAL Shia version of the emergence of the the so-called division. I was pointing out that there are serious questions about whether Shiism even existed before the regime in Persia of Ismael I. Sunnis argue that there is NO EVIDENCE of any Shia regimes, populations, etc. from the early period at all.

Not as an argument, but as a point of clarification can you briefly enumerate these 'serious questions' you mention?

You may be making some points here I'm not aware of. For example, you seem to be suggesting that the Shia version is pure invention, speculation and myth. I find this difficult to digest.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Duvduv]

What evidence is there for any Shia civilization anywhere from the dawn of Islam until the advent of the Safayyid Empire in Persia under Ismael I, who imported some syncretic teachings from Lebanon and established Shiism as the state religion in the 15th century?
There isn't any. Only generalized references to "rebellions" with virtually no details about anything.
And this is the beginning, i.e. since nothing was even written about the life of Muhammad until about 200 years after his dated death.

[Duvduv]

And to go a few steps further, WHY would any "Islamic" sects venerate ALI more than the Prophet himself? This makes absolutely no sense UNLESS such sects (Alawites, Druze, Shia) venerated someone named Ali BEFORE being integrated into Islam. After all, Ali is never mentioned anywhere in the Quran itself.
Furthermore, there are many questions about Sunni Islam itself, not the least of which is that MECCA was not a trading center in the 7th century, and there are NO external corroborative forms of evidence that Muhammed ever lived in the 7th century. Not even in the writings of the Karaite Jews whose early founders lived in the 8th century.
And why do so many of Quranic stories find their sources in the Jewish Midrash of "Pirqei Rabbi Eliezer" and Midrash Rabba?!
Is the Quran merely a composite of assorted stories circulating among Jewish-friendly Arabs having nothing to do with someone named Muhammad??

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Funnily enough, one of the names of allah IS Ali:

http://understandquran.com/and-the-answ ... -alee.html

This definitely suggests to me that your thoughts — about a Shia religion being incorporated into Islam at a later stage — are right.