One More Time: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah

[cnorman18]

From some recent threads, it appears that it’s time to repost this yet again -- as usual, as an informational piece only. It first appeared, in a slightly different form, in late 2007. It was among my very first posts to this forum.

My usual caveats before I begin:

This post is NOT an attack on Christianity.

This post is intended to EXPLAIN some things that very many non-Jews, including many Christians but also including many others, apparently do not understand.

Jews, as a rule, do not comment on the truth or falsehood of any other faith, and that includes the Christian faith; we have no right. We only claim to know how, in the words of our tradition, God chose to speak to US. If He chose to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say that He did not.

Asserting a belief in one tradition is NOT, in our view, a negation of all others, no matter how passionately others try to put those words in our mouths. We go our own way, and others may go theirs; we do not believe ours to be "the only true religion," as some others do, nor do we believe that one must be Jewish to be "saved." We truly have no such concept anyway, as will be seen presently.

This post is also not addressed to atheists. I have spoken on the radically different theology (insofar as it exists) of the Jewish religion elsewhere, and at length, and have many times noted the fact that very many Jews ARE atheists; but all of those issues, and the debates and discussions connected thereto, are not for this thread, and I will not be dealing with them here.

This post is on the rather more limited topic of why the Jews did not, and do not, and will not, accept Jesus as our Messiah.

That some few have, and do, does not matter, any more than the fact that very many Christians have converted to Judaism as well (I am one of them). People may choose to believe as they like; but that is not relevant here. The fact is that there are reasons why very few Jews who are familiar with and committed to their faith and tradition ever have, or ever will, believe in Jesus. This post is an effort to explain some of the most important of those reasons. If you do not agree with them, that is your right, but these matters are not, for Jews, open to debate or argument.

The core of this problem is that the office of “Messiah,� to Jews, and that of the “Christ,� to Christians, are two very different and virtually mutually exclusive things.

To begin, then: Jesus, to put it plainly, simply did not perform the very specific actions that the Messiah was expected to do. There can be no "wiggle room" here; the tradition has been constant for, quite literally, thousands of years, and it has not changed. It is true that most modern Jews are no longer much interested in the figure of the Messiah, and his importance has rather sunk into the background in recent centuries; but the concept, and the office, remains the same.

The issue was never that there were certain "prophecies" that the Messiah had to "fulfill," as many seem to think. Most of the “prophecies� which it is claimed that Jesus “fulfilled� were never considered “prophecies� by Jews in the first place, a fact which is easily confirmed by any good book on Judaism. The very term prophecy has a different meaning in the Jewish religion anyway; there, it is only occasionally related to “foretelling the future,� and even then generally only in the short term.

The Messiah was never to be identified by “prophecy�; he was to be identified by the PERFORMANCE of certain concrete, real-world actions. To do them was to be the Messiah, and the meaning of the word "Messiah" was "the man who does these things."

Jesus did not do them. He was not the Messiah. There is no "therefore," because the phrases are synonymous.

Jesus fulfilled one and only one attribute of the Messiah; he was of the tribe of Judah. Much is made of this in two of the Gospels, Matthew and Luke, with elaborate genealogies given for Mary, and, oddly, for Joseph.

Other than that, St. Paul and the Gospels to the contrary, Jesus did nothing expected of the Messiah. Three such expectations will suffice for our purposes:

The Messiah was to be a military and/or a political leader, an actual, rightful King who would restore the line of David to the throne of Israel and reign in Jerusalem as the actual, literal earthly monarch of the Jewish nation.

He would restore the political independence of the land of Israel and free it from foreign rule.

Most importantly, his coming would coincide with the beginning of a time of perfect peace, justice, liberty and piety that would shortly extend over all the earth -- in THIS world and THIS life, and not in a "symbolic" or “spiritual� way, but in literal, present human history. Whether he himself would bring about this "Messianic Age," or whether he would arrive after we humans ourselves have achieved it by our own efforts, has been a bone of contention among Jews for centuries. I, myself, do not claim to know.

This last is, as I say, the most important signifier of all; the Messiah would arrive with the Messianic Age. He was named for it, and it was named for him. The two would come together, or not at all. They were, and remain, one.

It seems rather clear that none of these occurred, and most glaringly the last, which was and has always been the most important sign and task of the Messiah. The short answer, for many Jews, to the question "Why don't you believe in Jesus?" is "Oy! Look around!" The world is not at peace; ergo, Messiah has not come. That's an end to the "debate," for most Jews.

And now we come to the nature of the Christian Christ, and the enormous differences between what is said of Jesus and the attributes of the Jewish Messiah.

Put simply: Jesus claimed (or it was claimed for him) that he had power and authority that no Jew could or would claim for any man, and power and authority far beyond any that were ever attributed to the coming Messiah. These claims were, and remain, alien to Judaism and are in fact often blasphemous from a Jewish point of view.

First, It was claimed that Jesus was God incarnate; that he, a human being, was, in fact and truth, God Almighty Himself in the flesh.

It would be hard to think of an idea more repugnant to Jews, then or now. The oldest and most fundamental and nonnegotiable tenet of Judaism is that God is One, which means a good deal more than "one God." Among other things, it means that God is unique and indivisible, and shares His Essence and Being with no one and nothing. He is Alone. He is One.

It was, therefore, and will remain, impossible for Jews to accept the claim that a man could be, in any sense, God. The Messiah was never conceived to be anything other than an ordinary mortal man; anointed by God, to be sure, but no more a God himself than King David was, the paradigmatic King in Jewish history and tradition. There is no hint of such a thing as a Divine Man anywhere in Jewish tradition, teaching or literature; it is about as likely as the High Priest carving a stone idol and placing it in the Holy of Holies. It was, and remains, quite literally unthinkable.

The one -- count ‘em, ONE -- verse from Scripture (Isaiah 9:6) that is commonly given as proof that this notion DID have a part in Jewish tradition is, without apology, a gross misreading and mistranslation of the passage in question; and it is also, just as importantly, unique. The idea that such a radical departure from the ancient tenets of the Jewish religion would not be known and even heavily emphasized throughout Jewish teachings over the centuries, as opposed to appearing in one and only one verse of the Bible, is more than a little ludicrous. Basing the practice of snake-handling on one verse in Mark is positively reasonable and credible in comparison.

Second, Jesus was said to be the literal son of God. This was way beyond bizarre. The idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Sinai, could or would come down to earth and father a human child on a human woman is as foreign to Judaism as temple prostitution. That is a Greek idea, not a Jewish one -- consider Zeus and Hercules -- and it may be no coincidence that Paul was speaking to Greeks, not Jews, when he formulated it. There has never been anything within a light-year of that idea anywhere in all the enormous tradition and long history of the Jewish people. It is, once again, unthinkable:

Third, Jesus claimed the power and authority to forgive sins.

All sins.

It may be more difficult to see why this is such a problem for Jews, because this is not widely known: In the Jewish religion, sins can only be forgiven by the person being sinned against. That means, among other things, that God Himself cannot forgive all sins. If I punch you in the nose, who is God to forgive me? That sin must be forgiven by you, and only you, or it is not to be forgiven at all. No one else has the right. God can forgive sins against Himself -- failures to honor vows, ritual "sins," and so on -- but not personal sins against other people.

This is why Jews do not generally respond to the observation that the Holocaust should be "forgiven." We, the Jews of the present day, have no right. As Elie Wiesel, himself a Holocaust survivor, once said: "Ask the six million for forgiveness."

By the same token, even Christians, I think, often feel a certain revulsion when some convicted murderer taunts his victim's family with "God has forgiven me; why can't you?" I think most people instinctively feel that claim to be fraudulent and self-serving, not to mention hypocritical, even if they don’t share our belief.

By claiming the authority to forgive ALL sins, Jesus was not claiming to be coequal with God; he was claiming to be greater than God. No wonder some tore their robes and cried “Blasphemy!� when they heard him speak.

Fourth, as if all this were not enough: It was claimed that Jesus took on a role that had never been contemplated by any Jew from Abraham onward, a role that was not necessary and was, again, alien to the whole of Jewish teachings and traditions from the beginning to the present day; That role was that of “Savior.� it is claimed that Jesus was the sacrifice that saves all men from their sins, and that this salvation is accessed by believing in him, and nothing more.

This seems simple; but for Jews, there are no less than six separate problems here.

First, the idea that people need to be saved from their sins in the first place. Jews have never believed in "Original Sin," nor that all people are born sinful. We believe that everyone has an impulse to do good, and an impulse to do evil, and that these remain with us all our lives; our job is to follow the first and resist (or redirect) the second to the best of our ability.

Second, St. Paul to the contrary, Jews have never taught, nor do we believe, that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the Law" or face eternal damnation. We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.

Third, Jews do not believe that any human can bear the sins of another. That principle is underlined in the Torah over and over again. Each man bears his own sins, and that cannot be changed. Sins are forgiven through prayer, repentance, and “deeds of lovingkindness.� No blood is necessary.

Fourth, we do not believe that a "sacrifice" is necessary to obtain forgiveness for sins, whether animal or human (and the idea of a human sacrifice is so far from any Jewish belief or practice that it is barely comprehensible that anyone would even propose it as a possibility). It is true that animal sacrifices were performed in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple, but it is clear throughout the Torah and the Prophets that the sacrifice itself was meaningless without the repentance and devotion of the individual human heart.

Fifth, in Judaism, "belief" accomplishes precisely nothing by itself. There is no Creed in Judaism, no specified set of acceptable beliefs. What one "believes" is all but insignificant next to what one does, and no amount of "belief" cancels or ameliorates the results of one's actions. Believing the proper "doctrines" in Judaism is utterly irrelevant to anything at all.

A concrete example, put simply: if I am in need, what do I care what you "believe"? Will you help me, or not? Nothing else matters.

Sixth, Jews are not even certain that there is a Heaven at all. Judaism has rather little concern with the afterlife; it is not mentioned in the Torah, and belief in it seems to have been entirely absent from its teachings in the early years of our religion. Even those Jews who do believe in Heaven spend little time or energy thinking and talking about it -- and there is no belief in an eternal fiery Hell at all, anywhere in all of Jewish history or tradition. The focus of the Jewish religion is THIS life, in THIS world. The next, we leave to God. “Salvation,� in the Christian sense of “going to Heaven,� is a non-issue for Jews. It is not even a peripheral interest, let alone a central principle.

As you can see, though Judaism and Christianity share an ethic, basic values, and many religious practices, as well as (in part) common literature, our views of the nature and structure of the relationship between God and man, the nature and importance of sin and the means of its forgiveness, the significance of the afterlife, and many other matters, are so profoundly different that they really do constitute two entirely separate religions.

That one was derived from the other, and that we share a large body of Scripture, no longer matters. We stand beside each other as brothers; but we have long since taken separate paths. We ought to respect one another and work together where our ideals and ethics converge in the real world -- which is almost everywhere. Where our beliefs differ, we should agree to disagree and leave each other alone, because there can be no reconciliation there.

One more note: It is wholly illegitimate and improper for a follower of any faith to attempt to dictate to a follower of another what his beliefs OUGHT to be, then castigate him because they do not follow his prescription. No one has any warrant to point out passages of "prophecy" in our own Scriptures that we do not, and have never, read as such, and overrule the traditions and beliefs that we have held for more than three thousand years--and tell us what we ought to think and believe. No one has that right; not you, not your Church, not Jesus himself.

To Christians: This caveat applies in both directions. We have no warrant to tell YOU how to read the Bible, either; you may read the Hebrew Bible, which you have adopted as your Old Testament, in any way you choose. We also have no warrant to deny that Jesus is your Savior, or to deny that, for you, any belief you may hold about him is true. That is between you and God, and is none of our business; for all any Jew knows, those beliefs are true and correct for Christians and God will honor them. Jesus may very well be YOUR Messiah, even though he is not ours. That is not for us to say.

But in the same way, it is not your right to insist that we abandon our own beliefs and convictions in favor of an understanding of our own Scriptures that we have never held. As I say; this matter is not open to debate. This determination was made by my people two thousand years ago, and it has been reaffirmed in every generation.

If anybody is planning to post a point-by-point attempt at refuting all this, complete with a whole raft of "proof texts" from the Bible -- Old OR New Testament -- it will be a waste of your time. It won't be a waste of mine, because I've seen them all before, and I'll be declining to "debate." Others may choose to respond, which is fine, but for my part, I'll just refer you to this website, where you will find all the information you need.

If anyone wishes to DISCUSS these things, on the other hand, I'd be glad to participate. But don't try to convince me, as so many have, that Judaism actually, really does teach that Jesus was the true Messiah. That argument entails one of two, and only two, corollaries, you see; (1) that Jews are too stupid to understand their own religion and have been for 2,000 years, or (2) that we all secretly know that Jesus was our Messiah and have simply been lying about it. Both of those claims are insulting, demeaning, and grossly offensive to Jews, and are therefore by definition antisemitic. Don't go there.

I'll close with a saying from the Talmud that, I would hope, indicates a way to peace. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right -- or why we both were."

In that spirit, I'll offer this: I have said for many years that, when (if) the Messiah finally comes, the Jews will look up and say, “You’re here!� the Christians will look up and say, “You’re back!� -- and then we’ll all hug each other and laugh about it.

Peace to all.

[99percentatheism]

Really enjoyed reading your opening post CNorman and also the debate afterward. Your opening post certainly makes a lot of sense and after reading through this thread I have to say I now have more respect for the Jewish religion and less respect for Christianity. It is true that Christians have tried to twist the Hebrew texts and created a new religion based on it. Jesus was clearly not the Messiah the Jews were expecting.

I also agree that a Messianic Jew or Jewish Christian, or whatever they're called are simply just Christians with a Jewish past. It would be the same as calling a Muslim who had become a Christian a Muslim Christian. Some aspects of their previous culture is still going to be brought with them into their new religion, but the fact is their religion has changed. There are plenty of examples of this in places like Africa where Christians there have incorporated a lot of their old traditions into Christianity.

Even when I was a Christian myself I had a problem with the concept of a Messianic Jew. It troubled me. How could they claim to be Jews if they believed Jesus was the Messiah? It was an oxymoron. They are Christians, nothing more. As were the "Jews" who wrote the New Testiment. They ceased to be Jews once they took on Jesus as their saviour. They went from one religion to another.

But "Jew" is just as genetic as it is a choice. There is no way that ANY demand of exorcising Jewishness out of a person's DNA can be attained physically or spiritually. And "Judaism" comes in many varieties. Which one or ones is "real Judaism?" And which ones expunge a person from being "a Jew" if they are detached from Torah?

[Replying to post 82 by Paul2]

Nicene creed, 4th century.

"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made."

Seems pretty clear to me.

Don't misunderstand; Christians may believe that doctrine, or any other that they choose; but that is not a belief that Jews may embrace and remain Jews.

Christ is Greek for Messiah. One can believe in anything they choose as "a Jew" and remain "a Jew." Jesus and all of his disciples and the apostles were "Jews." None supernaturally converted into gentiles because of what they believed and embraced. "Christianity" is a Jewish expression based on its Jewish source and sourcing. That the agitation between "Jews" is present to this day makes no case against the Jewishness of the New Testament and the faith it supports and the Jewishness of "Messianic Judaism."

It makes little sense other than some sort of scare tactic to charge one isn't a "real Jew" for not adhering to the trappings, dogma and doctrines of modern Judaism in its many forms. And one that isn't demanded for atheists that are "a Jew." It is a well established position that Albert Einstein was "a Jew." And yet, he didn't believe in the universe and God the way the Torah presents.

BA-RUCH A-TAH A-DO-NOI ELO-HAI-NU ME-LECH HA-O-LAM, (Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe)

Spoken before meals in even Reform Judaism homes. Right cnorman18? I have been to meals at some of those homes.

Don't misunderstand, "a Jew" that chooses to believe in atheism and materialism and even agnostics, Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists, Wiccans, Reform Judaism, Hasidism, etc., etc., may believe what they choose to, or any other belief system or worldview they want to invent and remain a Jew.

The Book of Shemot (Exodus):
Chapter 20


1: And G-d spoke all these words, saying:

(Ed: The Ten Commandments Follow in Bold)

2: I am HaShem thy G-d , who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage (Ed: Commandment 1).

3: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me (Ed: Commandment 2).

4: Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth ;

5: thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I HaShem thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

6: and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

7: Thou shalt not take the name of HaShem thy G-d in vain (Ed: Commandment 3); for HaShem will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain .

8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Ed: Commandment 4)

9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;

10: but the seventh day is a sabbath unto HaShem thy G-d, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

11: in six days HaShem made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore HaShem blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12: Honour thy father and thy mother (Ed: Commandment 5), that thy days may be long upon the land which HaShem thy G-d giveth thee.

13: Thou shalt not murder (Ed: Commandment 6); Thou shalt not commit adultery (Ed: Commandment 7); Thou shalt not steal (Ed: Commandment 8); Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour (Ed: Commandment 9).

14: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife (Ed: Commandment 10), nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

15 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.

16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not G-d speak with us, lest we die.'

17 And Moses said unto the people: 'Fear not; for G-d is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.'

18 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where G-d was.

19 And HaShem said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

-https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... dus20.html

[cnorman18]

But "Jew" is just as genetic as it is a choice. There is no way that ANY demand of exorcising Jewishness out of a person's DNA can be attained physically or spiritually.

That is simply false.

“Being a Jew� can be genealogical — but that is not the same as “genetic.� Jewishness is not contained in one’s DNA. It is Jewish law, not biology, that makes one born to a Jewish mother Jewish from birth — because even when the mother is a convert, that law still applies. If being a Jew were “genetic,� then the descendants of converts could not be considered Jewish — and both King David and Jesus were descended from a convert, namely Ruth the Moabitess. Further, if Jewishness were “genetic,� then the children of Jewish FATHERS would be considered Jews, too. They aren’t.

Here’s another news flash: There are, indeed, certain genetic markers which indicate, for instance, that one is descended from Kohanim, or “Cohens,� the Jewish priests. But if one was not born to a Jewish mother, having that genetic marker still does not make one Jewish. That is a matter of Jewish law, too.

Therefore, even being BORN Jewish is NOT a matter of “genetics,� but a matter of Jewish teachings, tradition and law -- for which you seem to have a certain amount of contempt, on topics other than this one.

Too, if your contention were true, I could not be Jewish. My own “genetics� are Celtic; my ancestors are Scottish on both sides, and if your contention here were correct, that would forever exclude me from the Jewish community. And yet, according to Jewish law, I am as Jewish as any Cohen — and it is, in fact, forbidden by Jewish law for any other Jew to even allude to the fact that I am a convert, unless I bring it up first. “Jew� is not a “genetic� term; not ever.

And "Judaism" comes in many varieties. Which one or ones is "real Judaism?"

The ones which are and have been acknowledged as Jewish beliefs or practices for more than two thousand years by the entire Jewish community.

And which ones expunge a person from being "a Jew" if they are detached from Torah?

From being acknowledged as practicing or following the Jewish religion, there are many. Worshiping gods other than the God of Israel, for instance; worshiping multiple gods; worshiping idols; practicing human sacrifice; believing that the guilt of one’s own sins may be transferred to another person; worshiping a man as God Incarnate, or attributing “salvation� solely to such a belief.

Pretending that those standards don’t exist, and that anyone who is genealogically Jewish is allowed to believe and practice anything he likes and still be considered as practicing Judaism, is simply a gross misunderstanding of Judaism at best -- and at worst, an outright deception.

One other point: YOU do not have the authority to determine who is and is not "detached from Torah." Neither do I. That is a judgment that can be made only by the whole Jewish community, as expressed in its traditions and teachings.

And don’t forget this, either: that being born to a Jewish mother makes one Jewish is one of the traditions and teachings of Judaism that you here imply are meaningless. It’s not a matter of DNA, but of tradition.

One can believe in anything they choose as "a Jew" and remain "a Jew."

That is, of course, another deliberate attempt to confuse being a Jew genealogically with practicing the Jewish religion. One may not worship Shiva or Hanuman and be considered as practicing the Jewish religion; nor may one worship Jesus as God. That — in the same way that being born to a Jewish mother makes one Jewish — has been a consistent teaching of Judaism from the time of Jesus onward.

Jesus and all of his disciples and the apostles were "Jews."

Key word being “were.�

None supernaturally converted into gentiles because of what they believed and embraced.

Another deliberate attempt to confuse the two meanings of “Jew.� No one ever said that they became Gentiles. It is a FACT that they stopped practicing the Jewish religion the moment they acknowledged a human being as God. Claiming otherwise is simply attempting to redefine Judaism — and no one, no Christian, no Gentile, no individual Jew, has the authority or the right to do that. Period.

“Christianity� is a Jewish expression based on its Jewish source and sourcing.

Is Islam, too? Muslims claim that their religion is derived from Abraham as well, and they say that Moses and Jesus were both Muslim prophets. Christianity and Judaism (and Islam) are historically related, but they are clearly different religions now, with different priorities and different goals. That is patently obvious to anyone who understands these religions.

It makes little sense other than some sort of scare tactic to charge one isn't a "real Jew" for not adhering to the trappings, dogma and doctrines of modern Judaism in its many forms.

Please show, with a quote, where I have EVER used the expression “real Jew.�

Interesting that you insist that the "trappings, dogma and doctrines" of Judaism are entirely malleable and have no real importance, and that acknowledging that some things are permissible in the practice of Judaism and some are not is "some sort of scare tactic."

I say this because you yourself insist that a difference of opinion on the rather minor matter of whether active homosexuality excludes one from being acknowledged as a Christian is a deeply important, even vital FACT about Christianity, while presuming to REDEFINE GOD HIMSELF for Jews is just a matter of meaningless opinion.

Odd duality of standards, that.

And one that isn't demanded for atheists that are "a Jew." It is a well established position that Albert Einstein was "a Jew." And yet, he didn't believe in the universe and God the way the Torah presents.

And, predictably, yet ANOTHER deceptive attempt to confuse being genealogically Jewish with practicing the Jewish religion.

BA-RUCH A-TAH A-DO-NOI ELO-HAI-NU ME-LECH HA-O-LAM, (Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe)

Spoken before meals in even Reform Judaism homes. Right cnorman18? I have been to meals at some of those homes.

So what? You are still deliberately confusing terms, the meaning of which is well known. Were they converts? Or do you even know?

Don't misunderstand, "a Jew" that chooses to believe in atheism and materialism and even agnostics, Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists, Wiccans, Reform Judaism, Hasidism, etc., etc., may believe what they choose to, or any other belief system or worldview they want to invent and remain a Jew.

And, of course, still ANOTHER attempt to confuse the reader.

Will you say it straight out?

�Being descended from Jews is the same thing as practicing the Jewish religion, and any belief such a Jew holds and anything such a Jew does must be accepted as authentic Jewish belief and practice.�

If you refuse to say that, straight out and unambiguously, then all your arguments here fall to the ground and you will be tacitly admitting that your arguments have no merit. If you DO say that straight out, of course, you will be consciously and deliberately lying.

I should give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you have some other way to clarify your claims here.

Will you do so? Or will you run away again?

[Artur Axmann]

[Replying to post 1 by cnorman18]

The quick answer is they chose the present world in lieu of the world to come.

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 1 by cnorman18]

The quick answer is they chose the present world in lieu of the world to come.

We still do. The "world to come" is God's business, in the Jewish view, and we are content to leave it to Him. OUR job is to work toward making THIS world and THIS life better -- for all people, not just Jews. Even when I was a Christian, I considered being preoccupied with making sure I got my own precious little self into Heaven was a rather selfish attitude, especially when there was so much hunger, injustice, suffering and greed in the world -- to which I suspected, then and now, that God was opposed even more than I.

I still do -- but peace to those who differ. May you get what you seek.

[Artur Axmann]

[Replying to post 94 by cnorman18]

OUR job is to work toward making THIS world and THIS life better -- for all people, not just Jews. Even when I was a Christian, I considered

Did it ever occur to you that some Palestinian families living Jerusalem and in the West Bank would appreciate being allowed to continue living in their homes? And would prefer not to see their homes bulldozed? I'm just asking a question.

Can you simply answer :Yes or No???

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 94 by cnorman18]

OUR job is to work toward making THIS world and THIS life better -- for all people, not just Jews. Even when I was a Christian, I considered

Did it ever occur to you that some Palestinian families living Jerusalem and in the West Bank would appreciate being allowed to continue living in their homes? And would prefer not to see their homes bulldozed? I'm just asking a question.

Can you simply answer :Yes or No???

I believe I shall ignore that curious limitation on my answer.

Yes, of course I have. And I suspect that Israelis would prefer to go about their business without having their homes and synagogues and their children's schools attacked by missile and suicide bombs, too.

None of that is the subject here, and is thoroughly offtopic.

Three points, which you may take to another thread if you like:

(1) Not all Jews, even in Israel, support the policies and practices of the Israeli government; I don't. That is especially true in the United States.

(2) Those policies and practices (of the Israeli government) are not determined by the Jewish religion, particularly modern, liberal Judaism. There are more "Messianic" synagogues in Israel than of my own Conservative, or Masorti, branch.

(3) Even the Orthodox have a limited influence on Israeli policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians; most of their influence is on the rather more limited issues of marriage, conversion, and so on. If the Orthodox ran the show, the "settlements" in the Gaza Strip would never have been evacuated and Gaza never turned over to Palestinian control.

The subject of THIS thread is whether or not Jesus of Nazareth was the Jewish Messiah.

[Artur Axmann]

[Replying to post 96 by cnorman18]

"The subject of THIS thread is whether or not Jesus of Nazareth was the Jewish Messiah."


But can the immoral and godless decide the question. ?

Can those who murdered their victim decide his identity ?

Can those who murdered an innocent victim decide the role he should play in the future?

[cnorman18]

[Replying to post 96 by cnorman18]

"The subject of THIS thread is whether or not Jesus of Nazareth was the Jewish Messiah."

But can the immoral and godless decide the question. ?

Can those who murdered their victim decide his identity ?

Can those who murdered an innocent victim decide the role he should play in the future?

Ah, a straight-up charge that we Jews are "immoral and godless" and murdered Jesus. How refreshing. It does fit well with your blatant falsehoods about the Talmud.... Exposed now, of course, as I've exposed similar excrement before.

We've seen this sort of thing before. It doesn't get much traction around here.

[otseng]

But can the immoral and godless decide the question. ?

Moderator Warning


Please do not denigrate an entire class of people.

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[otseng]

Exposed now, of course, as I've exposed similar excrement before.

Moderator Comment

I do not want people to start referring to things posted as excrement. Please refrain from comments such as this and just stick to logical argumentation.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.