A dead person is just a body?

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

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Suzy
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A dead person is just a body?

Post #1

Post by Suzy »

Sounds shocking doesn't it. Why bother with the body after they have died?
I was watching a documentary the other day about the loss of a submarine in the Barents sea. Getting to the sub and recovering the bodies involved a huge amount of time, money and most importantly, risk to the divers.
My question for debate is why?
Yes I know its human nature to want to bring back a loved ones body and give it a decent burial. And religious people will have there thoughts on this too. But I personally think it is a total waste of time and money.
There are countless examples of the bodies of loved ones being brought back from far flung places for burial. But in that body bag or coffin is just the remains. A piece of decaying meat.
I do understand the feelings of the family and friends of the deceased and may be I will react the same if I loose someone close to me. But I have no problem with admitting here that I have never visited my fathers grave. Why? Because my amazing and lovely Dad was gone when he drew his last breath. What was left just made good fertilizer or food for the worms.
I sometimes say to my family, when I die just put me in the rubbish bin. :D

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Re: A dead person is just a body?

Post #11

Post by kiran »

Divine Insight wrote:
I would never be impressed by something like this. For one thing does anyone even know what Jesus looked like? No. Therefore to claim that this little girl drew a picture of "Jesus" is jumping to totally unwarranted conclusions. Maybe she was drawing a picture of a homeless bum she happened to have seen? Or maybe she saw George Carlin on TV and that's who she had drawn a picture of? He has a beard and is a divinely handsome man.

To rush off and become devote Christians just because a little girl drew a picture that someone thinks might represent Jesus is the totally wrong reason to believe in a religion anyway.

The only rational reason to believe in a religion is to read the doctrine of that religions and evaluate it whether or not it makes any sense.

All I can say is that if these "atheists" became "Christians" just because their little girl drew a really great picture of a bearded man, then these "atheists" were air-heads. :roll:

Not all "atheists" are necessarily the world's brightest people.
As an atheist myself, I really appreciate your analysis of this rather silly anecdote. (And I cannot disagree that George Carlin is divinely handsome.)

On the subject of "respect for the dead," I agree that it seems illogical. I understand that there may be psychological benefits to the relatives, but I don't think there should be.

As has been stated: a dead body is dead. Do what you want with it. It's not going to come back to life or care about what you do.

I just realized that what I said amounts to tacit approval of necrophilia... Crap. I don't approve of necrophilia, but I have to make that idea compatible with my lack of "respect" for dead bodies. I guess I think necrophilia is bad because it is dangerous to the person who is alive. There is an undeniable risk of infection. (Also it's gross, but that's not a good ethical rationale for anything.)

Wow, that was random. Anyway, when I die, I won't care what's done with my body. I would like that it be used for science or medicine, but I won't care about that once I die. As long as someone told me while I was alive that they were going to make my corpse useful, it wouldn't matter if they actually did. (Once that became apparent, I would be dead, and literally would not be able to care less.) While I am alive, the idea that my death will not be meaningless may give me comfort, but come on... My death will be meaningless. :D

I do therefore think that it's a waste of time to "respect" dead bodies that are no more than meat-sacks. We should make them useful as fertilizer, organ donors, medical practice cadavers, and maybe even delicious snacks.

(I say the last thing jokingly, but would it really be bad? Why? I certainly wouldn't mind being turned into human jerky. It actually seems like a pretty cool thing to do. It's the most fundamental way of aiding the survival of the human species.)

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Re: A dead person is just a body?

Post #12

Post by Suzy »

kiran wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
I would never be impressed by something like this. For one thing does anyone even know what Jesus looked like? No. Therefore to claim that this little girl drew a picture of "Jesus" is jumping to totally unwarranted conclusions. Maybe she was drawing a picture of a homeless bum she happened to have seen? Or maybe she saw George Carlin on TV and that's who she had drawn a picture of? He has a beard and is a divinely handsome man.

To rush off and become devote Christians just because a little girl drew a picture that someone thinks might represent Jesus is the totally wrong reason to believe in a religion anyway.

The only rational reason to believe in a religion is to read the doctrine of that religions and evaluate it whether or not it makes any sense.

All I can say is that if these "atheists" became "Christians" just because their little girl drew a really great picture of a bearded man, then these "atheists" were air-heads. :roll:

Not all "atheists" are necessarily the world's brightest people.
As an atheist myself, I really appreciate your analysis of this rather silly anecdote. (And I cannot disagree that George Carlin is divinely handsome.)

On the subject of "respect for the dead," I agree that it seems illogical. I understand that there may be psychological benefits to the relatives, but I don't think there should be.

As has been stated: a dead body is dead. Do what you want with it. It's not going to come back to life or care about what you do.

I just realized that what I said amounts to tacit approval of necrophilia... Crap. I don't approve of necrophilia, but I have to make that idea compatible with my lack of "respect" for dead bodies. I guess I think necrophilia is bad because it is dangerous to the person who is alive. There is an undeniable risk of infection. (Also it's gross, but that's not a good ethical rationale for anything.)

Wow, that was random. Anyway, when I die, I won't care what's done with my body. I would like that it be used for science or medicine, but I won't care about that once I die. As long as someone told me while I was alive that they were going to make my corpse useful, it wouldn't matter if they actually did. (Once that became apparent, I would be dead, and literally would not be able to care less.) While I am alive, the idea that my death will not be meaningless may give me comfort, but come on... My death will be meaningless. :D

I do therefore think that it's a waste of time to "respect" dead bodies that are no more than meat-sacks. We should make them useful as fertilizer, organ donors, medical practice cadavers, and maybe even delicious snacks.

(I say the last thing jokingly, but would it really be bad? Why? I certainly wouldn't mind being turned into human jerky. It actually seems like a pretty cool thing to do. It's the most fundamental way of aiding the survival of the human species.)
I new I would get at least one person agreeing with me but you did it with knobs on! :shock:
Great post. :)

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Re: A dead person is just a body?

Post #13

Post by Suzy »

Donald wrote:

I heard a story you might respect. Two atheist individuals, who were together as a couple, had a child. The parents were totally against the Christian belief system of Jesus Christ and their hearts were solid as stone until something beautiful happened. Their little daughter, maybe 5 or 6 years old, had the ability of drawing pictures at a young age and drew an exquisite beautiful drawing showing the face of Jesus Christ with His long brown bread, and His long dark hair. When the parents saw their daughter's drawing, they were completely shocked and stunned at the beautiful picture their daughter drew. God knew the daughter would have atheist parents and gave the gift of art to the daughter to show the face of Jesus to the parents, perhaps hoping her parents would love the drawing and at the same time, love Jesus Christ. These parents then underwent a change of heart and conversion becoming devoted Christians of Jesus Christ and they are still Christians today.

Do you think this too can happen to you Suzy?
I ****** well hope not? surely to god I have more sense than that!

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Post #14

Post by OnceConvinced »

Suzy, I kind of feel similarly about one thing. That's that I don't expect to have some big elaborate burial or funeral. I would rather my family spend that money on something that's actually gonna be beneficial to them. Be sensible with your money. If I'm dead, I'm not gonna care where I'm buried or how fancy my headstone is or how much money was spent.

Thrown in the trash? I've joked about that myself, after all I'm not gonna care if my dead body is in the rubbish, but I don't think you could ever tell a loved one to do that to you. Imagine how they'd feel doing it. As others have indicated, funerals, graves, ceremonies and all that jazz are for the benefit of the living not the dead. A way to make them feel better about your death. Seeing your body and paying their last respects means something to the living. It does for me even though I know that all they are now is just a body.

For me, I think I'd be happy to be buried somewhere in a hole with maybe a crude wooden cross erected. Ok, maybe not a cross, because that's a symbol of cruelty, torture and human sacrifice... but something like it.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


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Re: A dead person is just a body?

Post #15

Post by Goat »

Suzy wrote:
Donald wrote:

I heard a story you might respect. Two atheist individuals, who were together as a couple, had a child. The parents were totally against the Christian belief system of Jesus Christ and their hearts were solid as stone until something beautiful happened. Their little daughter, maybe 5 or 6 years old, had the ability of drawing pictures at a young age and drew an exquisite beautiful drawing showing the face of Jesus Christ with His long brown bread, and His long dark hair. When the parents saw their daughter's drawing, they were completely shocked and stunned at the beautiful picture their daughter drew. God knew the daughter would have atheist parents and gave the gift of art to the daughter to show the face of Jesus to the parents, perhaps hoping her parents would love the drawing and at the same time, love Jesus Christ. These parents then underwent a change of heart and conversion becoming devoted Christians of Jesus Christ and they are still Christians today.

Do you think this too can happen to you Suzy?
I ****** well hope not? surely to god I have more sense than that!

Doesn't it sound like a 'urban legend' happy conversion story to you??
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #16

Post by Divine Insight »

OnceConvinced wrote: Thrown in the trash? I've joked about that myself, after all I'm not gonna care if my dead body is in the rubbish, but I don't think you could ever tell a loved one to do that to you. Imagine how they'd feel doing it. As others have indicated, funerals, graves, ceremonies and all that jazz are for the benefit of the living not the dead. A way to make them feel better about your death. Seeing your body and paying their last respects means something to the living. It does for me even though I know that all they are now is just a body.
I had my mother cremated. And when you stop and think about it that's really pretty much the same thing as throwing a body in the trash. Of course I certainly didn't think of it that way. But then again, to be perfectly honest about it I was very practical about it. Cremation was far cheaper than a burial. And quite frankly I didn't want to go into debt to have my mother's body buried. Why should I go into thousands of dollars of debt for that?

Anyone who thinks that I didn't love my mother because I simply had her dead body cremated doesn't know anything about me or my mother. We we're very close. I took care of her in her final years right up to the day she died. I would have never put her in a home no matter what. The last three years with her required my full attendance 24/7. I mean, I literally didn't go anywhere save for very brief runs out to the store for supplies. So when she was alive I was dedicated to her as much as a son could possibly be. And when she passed on it left a very deep emptiness within me that was actually physically painful. Even being conscious that these things are caused much from our own choice of how to react to them it was still quite impossible for me not to feel physical pain after she had died. That lasted for quite a while to. Even though I tried to "shake it off". Because I knew that feeling bad over her death isn't doing any good anyway.

In any case, after they cremated her the funeral home called me up to come and pick up the ashes. I didn't even know they were going to give me the ashes. I didn't specifically ask for them. But I went and picked them up anyway. They just handed me a brown box containing the ashes. In fact, I never even opened the box to this very day. It's just covered in brown paper. It still has my address on it. I don't even know if there is a box within the box?

I actually went out and bought a large glass urn with a nice fancy lid. All clear glass. I was going to take the ashes out of the cardboard box and place them in this urn. And this is really going to sound silly, but my thinking was that my mother would like to be in the light instead of in a dark box. :lol:

It's silly I know.

Anyway, I told my sister that I was going to do this and she reacted quite negatively to the idea. She didn't like the idea of placing the ashes in a clear urn where people could see them. I think she kind of felt that mom would then be "naked" in front of everyone.

Isn't it amazing how different minds think?

I really didn't want this to become an issue so I just left the ashes in postal box and they are still there today.

The other thing too is that my sister wanted to have a ceremony where we took the ashes out and flung them into the air to set mom's spirit free to the wind. I guess she doesn't mind if mom flies around as naked dust. :lol:

I thought that would be ok, but I wanted to do something different. I wanted to take the ashes and spread them around in all my flower gardens so mom can become part of the flowers and she would still be right here with me instead of off flying around naked somewhere in the wind. ;)

But again, my sister didn't like the idea of burying the ashes in my flower gardens. So once again we just let the whole thing go rather than argue about it. And so the ashes are still sitting in the postal box they came in.

I don't seriously believe that my mother's spirit is in those ashes. But I though it could be a psychologically poetic gesture to put the ashes in the flower garden and pretend that mom's spirit comes up every spring and summer to visit.

At least that's a dynamic reoccurring reminder of her. It's been almost 10 years now since she passed away. It doesn't seem that long ago to me, it seems like just last year. Anyway my sister hasn't mentioned the ashes in years and we've never spoken about them since after mom died. Maybe next spring I should just take them out and put them in my flower gardens and just not tell my sister that I did it. ;)

My sister lives a thousand miles from me and hardly ever visits anyway. She would never know. Besides she wasn't even around that last 6 years that I spent with mom when mom was actually alive. I really don't think my sister should have much say about what I do with mom's ashes actually.
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Post #17

Post by kiran »

[Replying to post 16 by Divine Insight]

I think that scattering the ashes in your flowers sounds lovely. Even if you realize it's only a psychological act, there's something profoundly thrilling about the idea of a human being recycled into year after year of beautiful flowers.

I appreciate your story. Although such a decision is far in my future, my mother has expressed her desire to be cremated, so I may one day be faced with a similar situation. I'll remember what you shared.

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Post #18

Post by TheThinWhiteDuke »

[Replying to post 17 by kiran]

My father died in 2000 of throat cancer, and was cremated.
The family have thrown the ashes in the river, where he used to fish once a month, with his buddy.
After his buddy died 6 years later, his family did the same on the same spot where my father's ashes were thrown in the river.

In 2006, the son of my sister who just turned 21, killed himself, after his girlfriend broke up with him. He was also cremated.
Because the males in our family ( myself included ) are major soccer fans.
And we have thrown some of his ashes on the field, in the soccer stadium of Ajax Amsterdam. The remaining ashes are still in a urn, in my sister's house.

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Post #19

Post by OnceConvinced »

[Replying to post 16 by Divine Insight]

I like the flower garden idea.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


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Re: A dead person is just a body?

Post #20

Post by jerryxplu »

[Replying to post 1 by Suzy]

In ancient China, there was once a man with a mother that just died. He proceeded to simply toss the corpse into the woods. Few day later he went into the wood and saw that wild animals were feasting on his mother and tears just flow out of his eyes. He then chased away the animal and took the body back, bought a coffin and buried her.

The point I am trying to make is that we love our friends and family members. We don't want their body to be expose to things after death whether or not we think it is simply an empty shell. In the case of the submarine, I would be thinking fish and crab eating their remains.

The funeral and similar ceremonies are not for the dead (although some believe it is also for the deceased such as the belief that it can reducing sin in Asian culture through special rituals so their soul won't suffer as much in the afterlife) The funeral is a way for the living to cope with the loss of love ones. In summary to seek closure in order to really move on with the lives.

Now with the logic. Of course we can think what we want or believe we would be feeling but reality and actually being there and witness it is much different than what we thought it may be. Emotions are not always logical.

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