Forgiveness vs doing good to our enemies.

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Elijah John
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Forgiveness vs doing good to our enemies.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

It is well known that Jesus advocates forgiveness.

In the Lord's prayer, he teaches us to ask the Father to "forgive as we forgive"

In the Beattitudes he teaches that the "merciful will receive mercy".

And if a brother (or sister) comes up to us and says, "I repent" Jesus teaches that we must forgive 70 x7, meaning without limit, every time they repent.

I know a lot of Christians struggle with this teaching, but I think the key phrase in all of this is "I repent".

If someone does us wrong, and continues to do so without repentance, are we to forgive? Or do they then become an "enemy".

And we are taught to do good towards our enemies, and to pray for them.

So, the question for debate is this, what is the difference between forgiving a "brother or sister" and doing good to an enemy?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Divine Insight
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Post #2

Post by Divine Insight »

I'm glad you bought this topic up Elijah John because this is a topic that I feel shows clearly why the Bible is devoid of anything useful, and that the teachings of Jesus aren't so hot.

To begin with what constitutes and "enemy"? Did Jesus ever even bother to address this issues? I don't believe he did.

Insofar as I am aware I have no enemies. And therefore this whole topics is totally devoid of any value to me.

Is a mentally deranged serial killer my "enemy"? More importantly should I even forgive a mentally deranged serial killer for his activities and behavior?

If he truly is mentally ill, then perhaps he's a victim of mental illness and I should feel sorry for him rather than worrying about "forgiving" him for being mentally ill. What good would that do?

Did Jesus address these real-life problems of mental illness etc? No he didn't. In fact, back in his time mental illness wasn't even recognized as such. A mentally ill person was deemed to be "possessed by evil spirits".

These were highly superstitious times that were filled with ignorance. And Jesus was evidently just as ignorant as everyone else in his time period because he never even mentioned metal illness, etc.

Who are your enemies Elijah John?

And why should you be "forgiving" them anyway?

If your enemies are perfectly sane and healthy people, yet they are out to do bad things to you, then shouldn't you try to figure out why they hate you so much?

On the other hand, if they are just doing nasty things to just anyone, then maybe they aren't so sane and healthy after all.

The problem with the whole Biblical paradigm is that it doesn't even allow for mental illness. Everyone is being charged with choosing to be a "sinner" like as if they have chosen to do so using a perfectly healthy and sane mind.

But I ask you, "Where is there any sanity is choosing to do mean or cruel things to other people?"

As far as I'm concerned anyone who does that is already showing signs of mental illness.

PUBLIC DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that everyone who has a mental illness will necessarily do evil things. I'm just saying that anyone who knowingly chooses to do evil things can't be sane, IMHO.

Sanity and doing evil things simply don't go together, IMHO.

The Biblical tales were written in a period of history where people didn't have a clue about mental illness. They figured that if someone wasn't doing things right it can only be one of two things:

1. The person has knowingly chosen to do bad things using a perfectly sane mind.

OR

2. The person must be possessed by evil spirits.

Mental illness as the cause of anything wasn't even a consideration.

The mere fact that Jesus never addressed these real-life issues tells me with absolute certainty that he did not have a clue what he was even talking about.

He was just as superstitious as everyone living in his day and age.
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Elijah John
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Post #3

Post by Elijah John »

Hey D I....

I do understand your point of view, but I think you are not telling me here why Jesus seems to be making a distinction between forgiving the repentant and doing good to one's enemies.

Is there one?, and what is the difference?

Regarding your hypothetical case about the serial killer, it seems to me that there are only two parties in a position to forgive the criminal. The victim (or the victime's loved ones), and God. It is not up to any third party (or fourth) to forgive, but only those involved.

Which is not to say that all or us as "society" should not pursue justice.

And also, the fact that Jesus does not mention "mental illness" does not diminish his credibility, especially when speaking on moral and ethical issues. Remeber, Jesus was a man of his times, and that concept was not available as an option. Seems to me you are projecting our science age understanding backward and trying to judge Jesus by modern standards instead of simply looking at his teachings in the context of the times.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Divine Insight
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Post #4

Post by Divine Insight »

Elijah John wrote: And also, the fact that Jesus does not mention "mental illness" does not diminish his credibility, especially when speaking on moral and ethical issues. Remeber, Jesus was a man of his times, and that concept was not available as an option. Seems to me you are projecting our science age understanding backward and trying to judge Jesus by modern standards instead of simply looking at his teachings in the context of the times.
If Jesus has divine knowledge then he should have been aware of everything that modern science knows today.

And if Jesus didn't have divine knowledge, then his opinions on things are no better than yours or mine. In fact, his opinions wouldn't even be nearly as good as yours you mine because we have more knowledge of truth than he had.
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Post #5

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

What Jesus "knows" is not really the intent of the OP, what Jesus teaches regarding repentance, forgiveness vs. doing good to one's enemies is.

But regarding your claim that we know more than Jesus did, I would say maybe. And certainly with regard to technology.

But speaking for myself, I'm pretty sure he was a better person than me, and knew how better to behave. ;)
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

The Me's
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Re: Forgiveness vs doing good to our enemies.

Post #6

Post by The Me's »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The difference is perspective.

You're not to answer this question from YOUR perspective but from Gods. The reason you are to forgive without limit, and do good to your enemy, is because your enemy is a son or daughter of God.

If you fail in this regard, you may find God on THEIR side, acting as a protective father.

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Re: Forgiveness vs doing good to our enemies.

Post #7

Post by Divine Insight »

The Me's wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The difference is perspective.

You're not to answer this question from YOUR perspective but from Gods. The reason you are to forgive without limit, and do good to your enemy, is because your enemy is a son or daughter of God.

If you fail in this regard, you may find God on THEIR side, acting as a protective father.
When it comes to Christianity there is no such thing as "God's perspective".

All that exists are the totally conflicting personal subjective perspectives of the followers of this absurd cult called "Christianity" who constantly preach and proselytize that THEIR perspective is God's perspective. :roll:
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Re: Forgiveness vs doing good to our enemies.

Post #8

Post by The Me's »

Divine Insight wrote: When it comes to Christianity there is no such thing as "God's perspective".

All that exists are the totally conflicting personal subjective perspectives of the followers of this absurd cult called "Christianity" who constantly preach and proselytize that THEIR perspective is God's perspective. :roll:
I've noticed that slandering Christians like this is always welcome in public forums.

That doesn't make it right, it just makes you (and the forum) look bad.

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Re: Forgiveness vs doing good to our enemies.

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

The Me's wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: When it comes to Christianity there is no such thing as "God's perspective".

All that exists are the totally conflicting personal subjective perspectives of the followers of this absurd cult called "Christianity" who constantly preach and proselytize that THEIR perspective is God's perspective. :roll:
I've noticed that slandering Christians like this is always welcome in public forums.

That doesn't make it right, it just makes you (and the forum) look bad.
Where is there any "slander" in anything I said? :-k

I sincerely believe that Christianity is an absurd cult. So that's just a personal opinion being expressed about ancient fables and rumors. There is no slander toward any individuals or persons in that.

And it's certainly not slander to point out the FACT that just about every follower of these ancient cults does indeed act like their personal views are "God's perspective" and everyone else has it all wrong. :roll:

Not only do they express this arrogance toward non-believers of their religion, but they also express this toward followers of their very own religion.

Christianity is the most divisive and exclusionary religion on planet earth. I don't think any other religion can boast of having as many disagreeing cult factions as Christianity can. It wins hands-down in that category.

Christianity is the most self-divisive religion in all of history.

If the entire world were converted to Christianity that would only be the beginning of the real Holy Wars.

Once the Christians realized that there were no longer any non-Christians to argue with they would instantly turn on each other. They already do that now anyway.
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Re: Forgiveness vs doing good to our enemies.

Post #10

Post by connermt »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
...what is the difference between forgiving a "brother or sister" and doing good to an enemy?
To forgive, it seems one has actively done something bad to you. An enemy doesn't have to do something to you in order to be your enemy - they could simply not like you.
I suppose it depends on how you define an enemy.
About the whole forgiveness thing...I'm not so sure it's that great. Not everyone forgives others and many of those 'un-forgivers' live long, happy lives.
About the christian form of forgiveness - aka god forgives - I would ask "of what?"
Surely christians will point out the we've "all sinned" because of the fall in the garden, but I don't buy into that personally. But, then again, it's really none of my concern.

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