Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

[KCKID]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 4 by Jake]

Yep, I think you are spot on. One day they will have to change or be the outcast.

As Jesus predicted, hatred of the Church

Wow, some prediction - you preach hateful things and you predict people will hate you for it? Wow, the man was a psychic!

As it is noted above, gay authority comes from the world and it's ways "secularization" and not the Gospel.

The hostility of this thread shows the incompatible nature of the gay agenda and Christian life.

Right, because Christians have in their religious text hateful things that are incompatible with civil society.


Again and again, Christians refuse to recognize they are the ones spreading hate.

And KCKID accuses us of being branwashed???

Gay power over The Church is being supported and cheered on by "legions" of non and and anti-Christians worldwide. Like iot is well noted above, secularism empowers the movement.

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

- Saint Peter

(1 Peter 5)

[Haven]

. . . legions . . .

Are you trying to imply people who support LGBT people are demonic?

They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

How is being gay "reckless" or "wild?" Who is heaping abuse on Christians? It seems like the abuse is being heaped by Christians onto gays.

[99percentatheism]

Haven

As Jesus predicted, hatred of the Church is seen as something to cheer on by the world.

Who said anything about hating the Church?

The OP.

As it is noted above, gay authority comes from the world and it's ways "secularization" and not the Gospel.

"Gay authority?" What do you mean by this, friend?

I mean gay authority. The OP makes it clear that Christians must be obedient to gay power and authority.

The hostility of this thread shows the incompatible nature of the gay agenda and Christian life.

Other than the article mentioned by the OP, I don't see any hostility here.

Accusing Christians of being brainwashed because they believe what is written in the New Testament is hostility. And I don't see how it's not persecution as well. Demanding that we basically wipe away Christian truth because some women enjoy lesbian sex and some men enjoy gay sex . . . and that we must celebrate their sexual behavior, is as hostile as it gets.

[Haven]

I mean gay authority. The OP makes it clear that Christians must be obedient to gay power and authority.

I think KC was advocating acceptance and love of gay people by Christians, not "submission to gay authority."

Why should gays have to submit to Christian authority?

Accusing Christians of being brainwashed because they believe what is written in the New Testament is hostility. And I don't see how it's not persecution as well. Demanding that we basically wipe away Christian truth because some women enjoy lesbian sex and some men enjoy gay sex . . . and that we must celebrate their sexual behavior, is as hostile as it gets.

As for "Christian truth," well, you'll have to provide some evidence that Christian claims are in fact true.

Enjoying sex? For me, and the vast majority of other lesbian and gay individuals, it's not about sex. I want to be able to marry the person I love, start a family, and live a productive life, contributing to my community. Is that suddenly evil just because the one I love happens to be a man instead of a woman?

[99percentatheism]

Haven

. . . legions . . .

Are you trying to imply people who support LGBT people are demonic?

Are you denying that homosexuals do not have legions of supporters from the liberal and secular world?

I don't know if I am allowed at this website to define movements and the supporters as demonically empowered. I'll ask the Mod's if that is permissable. If I'm allowed to, I will. But be that as it may, I am obeying what I think are the rules here. But it is perfectly clear that gay power has a vast array "legions" of non and anti Christians supporters empowering their movement. Yoked together as it were with liberal and progressive "Christians" as well. "Christians" that notably KCKID puts outside of "mainstream Christianity."

They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

How is being gay "reckless" or "wild?" Who is heaping abuse on Christians? It seems like the abuse is being heaped by Christians onto gays.

It is reckless and wild to demand that Christians live as non and anti Christians.

Do you not understand what Peter wrote? His words are dramatically appropriate for this subject. Jude's even more. In fact, there is n ot one piece of scripture anywhere in the Bible that supports homosexuality or the "LGBTQI" movement. Not one single word. f one wants to look for brainwashing, obe could look at the propaganda used to denigrate Christians with that do not support UNrepentance.

KCKID has posted his thread in the apologetics section. Yet there is no Biblical or historical support for his demands that The Church become submissive to gay power.

[99percentatheism]

Haven

I mean gay authority. The OP makes it clear that Christians must be obedient to gay power and authority.

I think KC was advocating acceptance and love of gay people by Christians, not "submission to gay authority."

I have interacted with KCKID for possibly more than a year. "Love" does not mean acceptance or tolerance of sins, sinning and unrepentant sinners. Actually it is hate to demand that Christians celebrate sin, sinners and unrepentant lifestyles.

Why should gays have to submit to Christian authority?

Of course not. They exist in two utterly seperate worlds and worldviews. I wish that gay activism wasn't pointed at destroying The Church and Christians from being able to live as Christians should. If you don't want to hear the Gospel simply don't listen. Heck, many of the supporters of gay power are atheists. It's ubiquitous in the worldview it seems.

Accusing Christians of being brainwashed because they believe what is written in the New Testament is hostility. And I don't see how it's not persecution as well. Demanding that we basically wipe away Christian truth because some women enjoy lesbian sex and some men enjoy gay sex . . . and that we must celebrate their sexual behavior, is as hostile as it gets.

As for "Christian truth," well, you'll have to provide some evidence that Christian claims are in fact true.

A demand that Christians submit to gay authority??? How fast you supplied evidence. We don't have to dance to your tune.

Enjoying sex? For me, and the vast majority of other lesbian and gay individuals, it's not about sex. I want to be able to marry the person I love, start a family, and live a productive life, contributing to my community. Is that suddenly evil just because the one I love happens to be a man instead of a woman?

No, it is not suddenly evil.

[Haven]

I have interacted with KCKID for possibly more than a year. "Love" does not mean acceptance or tolerance of sins, sinning and unrepentant sinners. Actually it is hate to demand that Christians celebrate sin, sinners and unrepentant lifestyles.

Aren't all people sinners under standard Christian doctrine?

Of course not. They exist in two utterly seperate worlds and world views.

Then why are some Christians so bent on banning marriage and adoption for couples who happen to be gay?

A demand that Christians submit to gay authority??? How fast you supplied evidence. We don't have to dance to your tune.

No, it was a request for evidence of the truth of Christian claims, since you asserted that Christianity is true. This is a debate forum.

No, it is not suddenly evil.

Then why are you so against it?

[99percentatheism]

Haven:

I have interacted with KCKID for possibly more than a year. "Love" does not mean acceptance or tolerance of sins, sinning and unrepentant sinners. Actually it is hate to demand that Christians celebrate sin, sinners and unrepentant lifestyles.

Aren't all people sinners under standard Christian doctrine?

"Standard Christian doctrine?"

Marriage is man and woman in "standard Christian doctrine." By the way . . .

But YES, everyone is a sinner. But no Christian celebrates it. Homosexual behavior is a sin. By the way . . . though some celebrate it and demand that everyone on earth does too. Jesus gives a dire warning to people that do that. But hey, not everyone believes what is written in the Bible. Or in Jesus. This is about freedom of choice.

99Of course not. They exist in two utterly seperate worlds and world views.

Then why are some Christians so bent on banning marriage and adoption for couples who happen to be gay?

I don't know. I teach that LGBT's exist in an "otherworldy" existence that we need not ever dwell in. In fact the who;e "LGBTQI" invention is cuning propaganda that we only need recognize for what it is. I have consistently held the position that LGBT's and Christians exist in seperate worlds and worldviews. Just as the Apostles and Jesus taught. Tolerance is not acceptance. It is simply tolerance. We will always be fine without ever having to deal with celebrating gay behavior. We preach the Gospel no matter the consequences. If that means going to jail for angering the lost, so be it. History is replete with Christians suffering at the hands of the licentious. Nero was a member of the ancient LGBT community. Married two men even. I look at the neologism of the gay movement and see quite effective history there for us to always keep front and center.

99
A demand that Christians submit to gay authority??? How fast you supplied evidence. We don't have to dance to your tune.

No, it was a request for evidence of the truth of Christian claims, since you asserted that Christianity is true. This is a debate forum.

This thread is not the place for proving how utterly inappropriate and incompatible gay behavior is for Christian life. KCKID needs to prove his libelous accusation that we are brainwashed to believe that gay sex is a sin. If we are brainwashed then so was Jesus and the Apostles.

99
No, it is not suddenly evil.

Then why are you so against it?

I am being consistent to Christian truth. The evil stalking The Church is what I should contend against.

[Ooberman]

[Replying to post 4 by Jake]

Yep, I think you are spot on. One day they will have to change or be the outcast.

As Jesus predicted, hatred of the Church

Wow, some prediction - you preach hateful things and you predict people will hate you for it? Wow, the man was a psychic!

As it is noted above, gay authority comes from the world and it's ways "secularization" and not the Gospel.

The hostility of this thread shows the incompatible nature of the gay agenda and Christian life.

Right, because Christians have in their religious text hateful things that are incompatible with civil society.


Again and again, Christians refuse to recognize they are the ones spreading hate.

And KCKID accuses us of being branwashed???

Gay power over The Church is being supported and cheered on by "legions" of non and and anti-Christians worldwide. Like iot is well noted above, secularism empowers the movement.

Right. Gay power: they want to share the power. They want to have what others have.

You want to keep them powerless.

If you can't see why you are wrong, then I can't help you.


The Church is a corrupt and evil system. It always has been.

Homosexuals have never had power, and their ranks are too small to ever be a threat.

The Church demonizes them because they can. The Church has shown itself to be a bully of the worst kind - praying on the powerless for power and wealth.

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

I don't give a flying puck about your religion or it's tenets. It is evil.

For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

So, what do you care?

They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

- Saint Peter

(1 Peter 5)

"Christians are evil and will continue to ruin the world with their evil doctrine. They are base. They are grotesque. The world will not be in peace until they are gone and it can be free of the evil fantasy. People will not be free until the religion made up by homophobes, misogynists and miscreants is cleansed from the Universe."
Anon.

I can quote things too.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by KCKID]

You ask about mainstream Christianity then post an article about Uganda?

Anyway.

Homosexuals can be Christians - it is trivial to accept Jesus' death on the cross (is it not?) - they would also have to accept that they are sinners, like all Christians do. They would also have to accept that there is such a thing as sexual sin, like all Christians do. They might also not address their sins, like all Christians do.

Do you think there is at least the concept of sexual sin in Christianity?

In my view God works on our transformation in Christ and God might not choose the most prominent sins to work on as we might resist God on those points and fall away from our salvation again.

But mainstream Christianity does accept homosexuality as we do everyone.

I think the pressure the homosexual feels at church is the same the cheating spouse or the unmarried couple would feel or the person that looks at pornography would. All these choices are free to pursue in society in your own life, they all have the mark of modern day libertarian consensual no harm principles and I don't advocate legislation against any of them. I don't think any of them are wise though.

What you are asking is that society violates the basic rights of the individual to have freedom of association. I think that what you are asking will hurt minorities far more than majorities.