Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

[KCKID]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

[99percentatheism]

Why must "mainstream Christianity" celebrate homosexuality?

Why can't homosexuals and their legion of supporters from the non-theist and liberal theological worldviews, just live their views in their own "denominations," or clubs and communities?

Mainly, because certain Christians are trying to discriminate against them, and treat them as second class citizens. When there is legal equality for all, then there won't be this push back.

Until then.. the response that people will have to 'just shut uip' is to be vocal.

If someone were to study my history here at DC&R, it would be in letting homosexuals ply their trade freely away from The Church. Why should a Christian care what rejection looks like if it isn't being called orthodox theology? Gays should look elsewhere for their celebrations to be manned. The Church needn't spend any time becoming like the world and its ways and becoming a part of the gay agenda. Just let it exist where it always has. And I am fortunate enough to have said this to two very prominent Christian leaders back in the past. Once "gay marriage" and all the gay pride "political" rantings and ravings have become ancient history, Christian truth will still be the same as it was from John 1:1 and Christian marriage and morality will always be male and female behaving appropriately. My daughter just started at a Christian University where the incoming freshman class was the largest in its history. And this is a very popular school (and expensive). One that gay activists have targeted time and time again with attacks but failed to conquer time and time again.

Mainstream Christianity does not have to be affirming of anything gay pride oriented. The Church is finally facing this menace head on and far better. People like Matthew Vines are nothing new. Gay Christianity 101 and its proponents have such foundationless positions that even the Millennials see through it once they study it for what it is. Just keep to the path of truth ("straight and narrow) and nothing can corrupt you. And maybe, just maybe, this IS happening in the nick of time.

I always appreciate when I am made aware of a link like this one when it comes to the historical aspect of the struggle between the Church and its all to real adversaries: http://www.giveshare.org/newsletter/boo ... stika.html

Back to the book, The Pink Swastika.

American Gay militants portray all who oppose their objectives as Nazis. Perhaps you've seen a Gay Pride Parade where hundreds of pink triangles (symbols forced on accused homosexuals in Nazi camps) are worn or carried. Authors Lively and Abrams (an Orthodox Jew) expose the Big Lie that the Nazis were Anti-Gay. The Nazis were NOT Anti-Gay; they were Anti-Femme (anti-effeminate homosexual). Pink Triangle prisoners in concentration camps were often the sex-slaves of the SS-SA; the death-camp guards who were often former members of the Brownshirts (SA); a notoriously masculine homosexual organization founded by Ernst Roehm; the openly Butch Gay man who was the mentor and buddy of Adolf Hitler. Indeed, the party that later became known as the Nazi Party was founded in a Butch Gay Bar in Munich! Lively and Abrams prove that the roots of Naxism can be found in Homo-fascism and Homo-occultism, and that the roots of the gay rights movement in America can be traced directly to the Society for Human Rights, the butch Gay Rights organization in which Roehm and other early Nazi leaders were members and founders. This movement sought to legalize all forms of homosexual acts.
There is a spectrum among the homosexual community. On one side are the feminine male homosexuals. On the other side are the butch homosexuals, extremely masculine and contemptuous of feminine homosexuals. Understanding this internal antagonism explains how Nazi homosexual thugs would persecute effeminate homosexuals. We have been duped into believing that all male homosexuals are effeminate, when this is NOT the case!

Homosexuality of all kinds exploded in Germany in the late 1800s, and led naturally to the formation of the Nazi Party. Roehm, Hitler, Hess, Goering, Heydrich, and many, many, other leading Nazis were sexually perverted. The book provides evidence that, as a youth, Hitler was a male prostitute in Vienna and Munich. Throughout his life, Hitler surrounded himself with homosexuals, although he was not exclusively homosexual. He engaged in other, even more unspeakable, sexual vices. Hitler's greatest hero was Frederick the Great (1712-1786), a well-known homosexual. Hitler's buddy Roehm, who had to be purged in 1934 because his flagrant sexual excesses were offending the general public, was a homosexual and pederast (molester of young boys). The Nazis interned only 5,000-15,000 homosexuals out of 2-3 million German homosexuals. Many of the pink triangle prisoners in Nazi camps were falsely accused of being homosexual. The public pronouncement of Nazis such as Himmler against homosexuals was mere window dressing so as to not advertise the fact the Nazis were riddled with homosexuals. Hitler's fascist dictator friend, Italy's Benito Mussolini, referred to Hitler as that horrible sexual degenerate. Homosexuality has been termed the German vice, due to its prevalence in Germany.

The sexual perversion of homosexuality easily lends itself to authoritarian impulses. When a society accepts a moral relativistic philosophy (leading to acceptance of homosexuality) it could very well lead to the eventual destruction of our constitutional rights. The authors show that the reason why the Nazis were so anti-semitic had to do with historical reasons. The Jewish culture with its Biblical ethical system was implacably opposed to the macho-gay/warrior mentality that dominated so much of ancient Europe, especially ancient Rome and Greece. These ancient pagan cultures, which glorified sex between warriors, were worshiped by the Nazis who blamed the Jews for the introduction of Biblical morality, which, of course, condemned homosexuality and ended much of the pagan lifestyle in Europe. The basis of any human civilization is a moral and healthy sexual constitution. When sexual morality goes south, God's people are naturally persecuted.

And so it is, that the wrath of the Nazis was against those who stood for Bible morality and the sanctity of the family. Nazism was merely a Twentieth-Century revival of ancient Greco-Roman paganism, which exalted homosexuality. In fact, the whole six thousand years of struggle between the forces of good and evil in human history has been one of sexual morality versus sexual immorality. Pagan religions of Egypt, Persia, Carthage, Babylon, and Assyria were all steeped in pederastic (man-boy sex) tradition. Male homosexual temple prostitutes existed in the worship of Ishtar and Astarte in Syria, Babylon, and Canaan, who were the neighbors of the Israelites, and in Crete and Ephesus in the Greek world. The ancient religion of Baal had male cult prostitutes, I Kings 14:24, which is condemned by God, Deuteronomy 23:17. The Roman Empire, which can be considered a type of the Christian holocaust, homosexual sadistic emperors of Rome, tortured and persecuted Christians, who stood for Biblical sexual morality. Fourteen of the first fifteen Roman emperors were homosexual. As the Romans persecuted Christians, so the Nazis persecuted the Jews.

The Pink Swastika hits home in explaining the hatred of homosexual occult pagans toward those who stand for Bible morality. We have the same thing developing today in our society. The homosexual movement is diametrically opposed to those who stand for Bible morality. They are dedicated to the destruction of the family and the closing of churches who oppose their agenda. In Germany, the Wandervoegel boys clubs were breeding grounds for homosexuality prior to the ascent of the Nazis. So today, the Boy Scouts of America are a target of homosexuals. From 1973 to 1993, over 1,416 scout leaders were expelled for abusing boys. There is a juggernaut toward pushing the gay and lesbian agenda.
Lively and Abrams note that Mani, for whom Manichaeism is named, was a Third-Century prince of Babylon who devised his own form of Gnosticism. Gnostics blended pagan sex rituals and Mother Goddess worship with elements of New Testament Christianity, rejecting the Old Testament God as an evil demon. Manichaeism imposed on Gnosticism a caste system of leaders (elect) and followers (hearers). The heretical sect of Bogomils arose in Bulgaria and spread across Europe. Later called Cathars, Bogomils were infiltrated heavily by Manichaeans. Homosexuality became so closely associated with Bulgarian Bogomils that the practice became known as buggery. The word for Cathar in most European languages came to be the word for homosexual, Ketzer in German, Gazarro in Italian, Herite in French. One writer says that Heresy and homosexuality became so interchangeable that those accused of heresy attempted to prove their innocence by claiming heterosexuality. Bogomils, as we know, were remnants of Gods Church during the Dark Ages. Even they were apparently infiltrated by homosexuals!

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21. Could it be that the coming great holocaust will pit sadistic homosexuals against Bible believers? The chilling facts given in the book, The Pink Swastika should make us realize that we cannot compromise with evil, no matter what the consequences.
John commended those in Thyatira who had not known the depths of Satan, Revelation 2:24. It is dangerous to read much about Nazis and homosexuals. Evil has a power to enmesh those who delve too deeply into it. Sexual perversion is at the core of Satanic belief. May God guide His people to remain pure in thoughts and deeds. This Preview of the Tribulation should be enough for us to follow the Eternal now, and escape all these things to come to pass, Revelation 3:10.

[RottenHead]

My honest opinion, and it's very sad, is no.

The bible states that in the end generation there will be a famine of the real Word of God. We are taught that the generation of the fig tree, that is to say the generation living when Israel is established on the map in a physical location which occurred in 1948, is that last generation. Those born in that year would have a maximum of 120 years on earth before the coming of the Christ. We are therefor in the last generation and these are the end times and based on that idea we are in the times of great famine for the true Word of God. Thusly we are being taught improperly about the Love of our God. There is no reason that God would hate anyone or condemn anyone for the honest loving desires of their heart. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all to think that God would have a problem with those who are only attracted to members of the same sex.

[KCKID]

My honest opinion, and it's very sad, is no.

The bible states that in the end generation there will be a famine of the real Word of God. We are taught that the generation of the fig tree, that is to say the generation living when Israel is established on the map in a physical location which occurred in 1948, is that last generation. Those born in that year would have a maximum of 120 years on earth before the coming of the Christ. We are therefor in the last generation and these are the end times and based on that idea we are in the times of great famine for the true Word of God. Thusly we are being taught improperly about the Love of our God. There is no reason that God would hate anyone or condemn anyone for the honest loving desires of their heart. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all to think that God would have a problem with those who are only attracted to members of the same sex.

So, what is your viewpoint on 99percent's Pink Swastika' item above? I've been holding off responding because I'd rather someone else jump in first. You see, these debates often begin to fizzle out and they only remain active because of dialogue mainly between 99percent and KCKID. And, there is only so much one can say before it becomes a case of covering the same ground repeatedly. I would welcome some fresh insight from others if there IS such a thing as 'fresh insight' after everything appears to have already been said and done many times previously.

[RottenHead]

[Replying to post 399 by KCKID]

alright well, I read as much as I felt like of that pink swastika thing and it's a lot of words with little actual meaningful substance. sorry to the author 99percent but it's just not reflective of what I know about my God.

"it is so simple a child could understand," those are words from one of my all time favorite ministers( Arnold Murray) and it used to sound snarky to me until I truly came into my new understanding. God is love, yes? and so how can we as mere people presume to understand God and arrive at the idea that He somehow hates anyone?! it's absurd, truly. even a child can work out that if our God is loving and accepting and knew us before we were born there is nothing we can do in expressing our true nature that is against God or likely to turn Him from us.

boom, there it is. deep stuff huh. not really.

I'm sorry, I know a lot of Christians feel the bible states homosexuality is wrong but I know from personal experience that WE DO NOT CHOOSE OUR SEXUALITY and so there is just no way and no person that can show me or prove otherwise to me. I trust my understanding of the true character of God and it's not about a scrunched up face staring down from the clouds in disapproval expecting us all to live the same way. I'm sorry that just sounds silly to me and it's my opinion that it should sound silly to anyone with half a brain. again, I'm sorry I really don't mean any disrespect we are all on our own personal journey and I wouldn't smack anyone down from where they are currently but hope they just keep on climbing.

[99percentatheism]

RottenHead
[Replying to post 399 by KCKID]

alright well, I read as much as I felt like of that pink swastika thing and it's a lot of words with little actual meaningful substance. sorry to the author 99percent but it's just not reflective of what I know about my God.

Really? You KNOW what about God? There is no boundaries to behavior as long as they are engaged in wrapped up in a "love" package? It's actually quite simple that even a child can see that there is no such thing as same gender marriage anywhere in the Bible. All the child has to do is learn how to read. Well, and of course understand what is being read. Homosexuals have no justification to alter and rewrite the Bible to promote homosexuality.

"it is so simple a child could understand," those are words from one of my all time favorite ministers( Arnold Murray) and it used to sound snarky to me until I truly came into my new understanding.

Put away childish thinking says Paul. And to become like a little child, to enter the kingdom of heaven, would necessitate leaving our sexual proclivities behind. Unless one wants to present some very disturbing sexual orientation to what Jesus taught there.

God is love, yes?

Of what? "God so loved the world . . ." has conditions to that love. So simple . . .

and so how can we as mere people presume to understand God and arrive at the idea that He somehow hates anyone?!

. . . but it's just not reflective of what I know about my God.

God, in the Bible has some very serious boundaries that when crossed have some very seriously bad consequences.

it's absurd, truly.

Hell is not absurd. It is hellish. Per Jesus. The one that God so loved the world that He gave Him to us.

even a child can work out that if our God is loving and accepting and knew us before we were born there is nothing we can do in expressing our true nature that is against God or likely to turn Him from us.

Reread that quote of yours above and think of the ISIS executioner. God knew him from before he was born. All he is doing is expressing his true nature.

boom, there it is. deep stuff huh. not really.

Reality proves otherwise. The parables AND preaching and teaching of Jesus show very deep stuff indeed.

I'm sorry, I know a lot of Christians feel the bible states homosexuality is wrong but I know from personal experience that WE DO NOT CHOOSE OUR SEXUALITY and so there is just no way and no person that can show me or prove otherwise to me.

Then how can there be any such thing as sin and sinning if all one has to do is blame God for their "feelings."

I trust my understanding of the true character of God and it's not about a scrunched up face staring down from the clouds in disapproval expecting us all to live the same way.

Yours is an anything goes God? Staring down at a mankind that is led by everyone's personal feelings? Although that sounds like what we see reported on the news, that isn't exactly heavenly is it? And certainly nothing even remotely like what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.

I'm sorry that just sounds silly to me and it's my opinion that it should sound silly to anyone with half a brain.

How prophetic.

again, I'm sorry I really don't mean any disrespect we are all on our own personal journey and I wouldn't smack anyone down from where they are currently but hope they just keep on climbing.

It's not about smacking anyone down, it's about being honest about what is quite simply anything that even a child can understand. Or a 20 or 30-something PhD. Actually, your proposed theology above, worked out to its logical conclusion, everyone stops climbing with their personal justification of anything they want to do. No need to go on anywhere once "personal feelings" guide ones behaviors. The quest is over when God is subject to a human beings personal feelings. In fact though, the New Testament shows that there is only one path set forth by Jesus that all must follow if they desire the correct last stop. Or else. Per Jesus. Though once wandered from, the trip back to the right destination is arrived at by repentance and the forgiveness and the salvation paid for by Jesus. Certainly not an anything goes vehicle driven by the personal feelings of its driver.

If you can show me a Jesus in the Gospels, or written about anywhere else in the New Testament, that preached that anything a person feels is right IS right, I would be interested in learning that.

[Danmark]

God is love, yes? and so how can we as mere people presume to understand God and arrive at the idea that He somehow hates anyone?! it's absurd, truly. even a child can work out that if our God is loving and accepting and knew us before we were born there is nothing we can do in expressing our true nature that is against God or likely to turn Him from us.
....
... I know from personal experience that WE DO NOT CHOOSE OUR SEXUALITY and so there is just no way and no person that can show me or prove otherwise to me. I trust my understanding of the true character of God and it's not about a scrunched up face staring down from the clouds in disapproval expecting us all to live the same way. ....

This is a key point, that we do not choose our sexuality and that the Christian God is a God of love who would never punish people for acting according to their own God given sexual preferences. A loving God would not demand that a homosexual live a lie and fake loving someone he was not attracted to anymore than that God would demand a heterosexual be physically attracted to someone of the same sex.

[KCKID]

I may well have asked this question of you before, 99percent, but I'll ask it again anyway. What would you suggest that a person with a same gender attraction could do that would make you and your Bible God happy?

Please, no red herrings, no subterfuge ...just an answer that we can all understand.

If the question is too hard for you then just say so.

[Danmark]

I may well have asked this question of you before, 99percent, but I'll ask it again anyway. What would you suggest that a person with a same gender attraction could do that would make you and your Bible God happy?

Please, no red herrings, no subterfuge ...just an answer that we can all understand.

If the question is too hard for you then just say so.

The standard position a certain block of folks take is easy to predict:

"They should all be celibate. Those who God made in such a way that they find the opposite gender uninteresting sexually, if not physically repulsive, should deny themselves the intimacy and love that is part of a 'Christian approved' long term relationship like marriage. Instead, they should either be celibate their entire lives, or marry someone they are not sexually attracted to and either have whatever sexual relations they are capable of or live the lie of a phony, sexless marriage.

All of these scenarios are, to this way of thinking, preferable to approving two people who love each other as man and wife living together in a committed, exclusive, loving relationship.

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

I may well have asked this question of you before, 99percent, but I'll ask it again anyway. What would you suggest that a person with a same gender attraction could do that would make you and your Bible God happy?

"Bible God?" Isn't that a bit of an epithet?

The real question is why do Christians that hold to repentance and forgiveness, have to be labeld as hateful homophobes by gay activists? Why can't these gay activists just ply their trade in their own religious enclaves? Why isn't the gay activism more about promoting homosexuality than anything to do with a "Christian marriage?" A marriage validates the sexual aspect of a relationship. There is hardly any way to twist and spin that into some kind of gay pride aspect. This is about endorsing gay behavior in this so-called "equality" issue. How can you even deny that?

Please, no red herrings, no subterfuge ...just an answer that we can all understand.

If the question is too hard for you then just say so.

What is hard for me (and any other Bible affirming Christian), is to dodge the new paradigm of gay pride definitions that we live in. Anything "standard Christianity" a term I really approve of . . . is now seen as a some kind of violation of some new "hate crime or bullying law" or some newly invented social sensitivity.

So this is about persecution of "The Mainstream Church" and "mainstream Christians" and "mainstream Christianity." So the real question should be why do so-called "gay Christians" treat "other" Christians like the non and anti and secular gay pride activists do? Supposedly we are all NOT PART OF "the world and its ways . . ." So looking at the real question, it should be why do "gay Christians" unequally yoke themselves with adversaries of "Mainstream Christianity?" Why don't they just form their own religious expressions and let God sort this all out when they and their LBT (and the Q's et al) brothers and sisters in Christ stand at Judgment day? There is not one shred of support from scripture for LGBT activism to charge wrongdoing to Christians that oppose the homosexualization of "Mainstream Christianity."

Becausssssseeee KCKID, scripture disagrees with gay theology and gay activism. And, if we are just going to allow for anyone or any movement to rewrite Christian truth to whatever they feel is right, then literally anything goes. As in ANYTHING GOES. And any honest reading of the New Testament shows that there are clearly defined standards for what is and what isn't acceptable behaviors, beliefs and actions. And please notice that not one gay activist has ever produced one single positive statement about homosexuality or homosexuals. That isn't me being intolerant, mean, hateful or whatever little propaganda tactic that gay pride can accuse us of committing. . . it is just being honest.

No red herrings, no subterfuge, no lying. Hopefully that is an answer that everyone can understand. But seeing the way the world is progressing, there is guarantee of that.

[KCKID]

KCKID

I may well have asked this question of you before, 99percent, but I'll ask it again anyway. What would you suggest that a person with a same gender attraction could do that would make you and your Bible God happy?

"Bible God?" Isn't that a bit of an epithet?

Well, I should have perhaps typed it as "Bible/God" since you and many, many people believe the Bible to BE God. It isn't, by the way, it's a book.

The real question is why do Christians that hold to repentance and forgiveness, have to be labeld as hateful homophobes by gay activists?

My recent question to you said nothing of the kind.

Why can't these gay activists just ply their trade in their own religious enclaves? Why isn't the gay activism more about promoting homosexuality than anything to do with a "Christian marriage?" A marriage validates the sexual aspect of a relationship. There is hardly any way to twist and spin that into some kind of gay pride aspect. This is about endorsing gay behavior in this so-called "equality" issue. How can you even deny that?

This has nothing to do with the question asked of you.

Please, no red herrings, no subterfuge ...just an answer that we can all understand.

If the question is too hard for you then just say so.

What is hard for me (and any other Bible affirming Christian), is to dodge the new paradigm of gay pride definitions that we live in. Anything "standard Christianity" a term I really approve of . . . is now seen as a some kind of violation of some new "hate crime or bullying law" or some newly invented social sensitivity.

So this is about persecution of "The Mainstream Church" and "mainstream Christians" and "mainstream Christianity." So the real question should be why do so-called "gay Christians" treat "other" Christians like the non and anti and secular gay pride activists do? Supposedly we are all NOT PART OF "the world and its ways . . ." So looking at the real question, it should be why do "gay Christians" unequally yoke themselves with adversaries of "Mainstream Christianity?" Why don't they just form their own religious expressions and let God sort this all out when they and their LBT (and the Q's et al) brothers and sisters in Christ stand at Judgment day? There is not one shred of support from scripture for LGBT activism to charge wrongdoing to Christians that oppose the homosexualization of "Mainstream Christianity."

Becausssssseeee KCKID, scripture disagrees with gay theology and gay activism. And, if we are just going to allow for anyone or any movement to rewrite Christian truth to whatever they feel is right, then literally anything goes. As in ANYTHING GOES. And any honest reading of the New Testament shows that there are clearly defined standards for what is and what isn't acceptable behaviors, beliefs and actions. And please notice that not one gay activist has ever produced one single positive statement about homosexuality or homosexuals. That isn't me being intolerant, mean, hateful or whatever little propaganda tactic that gay pride can accuse us of committing. . . it is just being honest.

No red herrings, no subterfuge, no lying. Hopefully that is an answer that everyone can understand. But seeing the way the world is progressing, there is guarantee of that.

Well, perhaps I'm getting thick in my old age but I can't see an answer to my question in any of the above. So ...I'll try again. What would you suggest that a person with a same gender attraction could do that would make you and your Bible/God happy? Assume that there are 'struggling' gay people reading these posts who are looking for a way out from their unwanted homosexuality and are looking to you for an answer.