Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

[KCKID]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

[dianaiad]

I may well have asked this question of you before, 99percent, but I'll ask it again anyway. What would you suggest that a person with a same gender attraction could do that would make you and your Bible God happy?

Please, no red herrings, no subterfuge ...just an answer that we can all understand.

If the question is too hard for you then just say so.

I cannot answer for 99, and I know that he is the one your question is aimed at. I am also aware that, by chiming in here I"m putting a great big target on my head....but here goes.

What would a person with a same gender attraction do that would make me and my 'bible God' happy?

Well, it's not the job of anybody to make ME happy, so let's just skip that part.

As for God...at least the description of the God I happen to believe in, it would be to trust Him.

there are very, very, VERY few homosexuals who are attracted ONLY to their own sex. It's a continuum of desire, there, not a binary set. So, if one is able to find a loving spouse from the opposite sex, and can stay faithful to him or her, then that's what should happen.

If not...then do what many, many heterosexual people do when they can't find, or marry, the spouse they can love.

Don't have sex outside the marriage bonds. Live a good, full, rich and healthy life in other ways.

It is possible. Really. I promise.

Of course, if the gay person simply cannot do that, then I suggest that he or she find a belief system that will support them, go there, and be happy. There are many belief systems, including many Christian ones, who offer support and approval. Find one. Be happy.

What gay couples do not have the right to do is to force others to approve of them and their choice of mates. I do not ask you, or them, or anybody to approve of the way I live my life as a widow of 20 years who has managed to live quite happily adhering to the precepts of my belief system.

Go.

Be happy.

Leave me out of it.

Doesn't that sound fair?

[Goat]

I may well have asked this question of you before, 99percent, but I'll ask it again anyway. What would you suggest that a person with a same gender attraction could do that would make you and your Bible God happy?

Please, no red herrings, no subterfuge ...just an answer that we can all understand.

If the question is too hard for you then just say so.

I cannot answer for 99, and I know that he is the one your question is aimed at. I am also aware that, by chiming in here I"m putting a great big target on my head....but here goes.

What would a person with a same gender attraction do that would make me and my 'bible God' happy?

Well, it's not the job of anybody to make ME happy, so let's just skip that part.

As for God...at least the description of the God I happen to believe in, it would be to trust Him.

there are very, very, VERY few homosexuals who are attracted ONLY to their own sex. It's a continuum of desire, there, not a binary set. So, if one is able to find a loving spouse from the opposite sex, and can stay faithful to him or her, then that's what should happen.

If not...then do what many, many heterosexual people do when they can't find, or marry, the spouse they can love.

Don't have sex outside the marriage bonds. Live a good, full, rich and healthy life in other ways.

It is possible. Really. I promise.

Of course, if the gay person simply cannot do that, then I suggest that he or she find a belief system that will support them, go there, and be happy. There are many belief systems, including many Christian ones, who offer support and approval. Find one. Be happy.

What gay couples do not have the right to do is to force others to approve of them and their choice of mates. I do not ask you, or them, or anybody to approve of the way I live my life as a widow of 20 years who has managed to live quite happily adhering to the precepts of my belief system.

Go.

Be happy.

Leave me out of it.

Doesn't that sound fair?

Now, no one is asking you to 'approve' of it. What they seem to be asking is to the equal rights when it comes to marriage, and the legal benefits /obligations. and the social benefits/obligations.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 4 by Jake]

Yep, I think you are spot on. One day they will have to change or be the outcast.

As Jesus predicted, hatred of the Church is seen as something to cheer on by the world.

As it is noted above, gay authority comes from the world and it's ways "secularization" and not the Gospel.

The hostility of this thread shows the incompatible nature of the gay agenda and Christian life.

Where did Jesus predict 'hatred of the Church?'
It is ironic to complain about 'hatred' while trying to justify hatred of 'the gay agenda' or hatred of 'secularization.' This attitude of exclusion of those who are different or who honestly and lovingly see life from a different point of view is the antithesis of what Christ preached. Jesus did not preach a doctrine of hate, but a doctrine of love.

Jesus preached love and acceptance; rejection of the haughty hypocrite who insisted on his own way and used the law to condemn. The only time I recall that Jesus got angry was when those who claimed they were of the church misused their office or used it to condemn others.

[99percentatheism]

Danmark

[Replying to post 4 by Jake]

Yep, I think you are spot on. One day they will have to change or be the outcast.

As Jesus predicted, hatred of the Church is seen as something to cheer on by the world.

As it is noted above, gay authority comes from the world and it's ways "secularization" and not the Gospel.

The hostility of this thread shows the incompatible nature of the gay agenda and Christian life.

Where did Jesus predict 'hatred of the Church?'

John 15:

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

Matthew 10:

These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. As you enter the house, greet it. And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

“Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

It is ironic to complain about 'hatred' while trying to justify hatred of 'the gay agenda' or hatred of 'secularization.'

Opposing the celebration and "affirming" of homosexuality is not hate. Not wanting to any longer be "of the world," is not hate. It is embracing Christian truth.

This attitude of exclusion of those who are different or who honestly and lovingly see life from a different point of view is the antithesis of what Christ preached.

Prove that.

Jesus did not preach a doctrine of hate, but a doctrine of love.

With requirements. Qualifications. Etc., etc..

Jesus preached love and acceptance;

Where? When? How?

. . . rejection of the haughty hypocrite who insisted on his own way and used the law to condemn.

That sounds exactly like what the gay community and gay "pride" is demanding. BY SECULAR LAW. And now of course, are trying to ply in some denominations.

The only time I recall that Jesus got angry was when those who claimed they were of the church misused their office or used it to condemn others.

Where and when was that? Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God after His ascension when Peter (et al) founded any Churches that had offices staffed by disciples. And, upon the rock that Peter pronounced and Jesus affirmed, is a very exclusive one-way street.

[Danmark]

This attitude of exclusion of those who are different or who honestly and lovingly see life from a different point of view is the antithesis of what Christ preached.

Prove that.

The positions you've advocated demonstrate one half of the equation. Jesus demonstrates the other with, among other passages, his parables of the Good Samaritan and the Canaanite woman who asks for healing for her daughter.

He returned to this theme over and over:

From Matthew 23:
"23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/23.24,?lang=eng

[99percentatheism]

This attitude of exclusion of those who are different or who honestly and lovingly see life from a different point of view is the antithesis of what Christ preached.

Prove that.

The positions you've advocated demonstrate one half of the equation. Jesus demonstrates the other with, among other passages, his parables of the Good Samaritan and the Canaanite woman who asks for healing for her daughter.

He returned to this theme over and over:

From Matthew 23:
"23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/23.24,?lang=eng

Pharisees were Jews. Did you know that? I'm fairly sure the "scribes" were as well.

[Danmark]

This attitude of exclusion of those who are different or who honestly and lovingly see life from a different point of view is the antithesis of what Christ preached.

Prove that.

The positions you've advocated demonstrate one half of the equation. Jesus demonstrates the other with, among other passages, his parables of the Good Samaritan and the Canaanite woman who asks for healing for her daughter.

He returned to this theme over and over:

From Matthew 23:
"23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/23.24,?lang=eng

Pharisees were Jews. Did you know that? I'm fairly sure the "scribes" were as well.

Yes, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes and Jesus; all Jews. But this colossally misses the point.

[99percentatheism]

This attitude of exclusion of those who are different or who honestly and lovingly see life from a different point of view is the antithesis of what Christ preached.

Prove that.

The positions you've advocated demonstrate one half of the equation. Jesus demonstrates the other with, among other passages, his parables of the Good Samaritan and the Canaanite woman who asks for healing for her daughter.

He returned to this theme over and over:

From Matthew 23:
"23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/23.24,?lang=eng

Pharisees were Jews. Did you know that? I'm fairly sure the "scribes" were as well.

Yes, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes and Jesus; all Jews. But this colossally misses the point.

Yes, yes it does.

Marriage and appropriate sexual behavior "for Jews" is to be found in the arrangement of man and woman/husband and wife. AND as can be seen by any cursory or finely detailed reading of the New Testament, this reality "for Jews" is has never been disproven by anyone. And also though, the definition of marriage and appropriate sexual behavior is ALSO man and woman/husband and wife" in the Christian community both Jew and gentile alike. A cursory or detailed study of the New Testament proves that absolutely. Jesus absolutely REaffirmed that marriage is man and woman/husband and wife . . . and every other voice did the same in the New Testament. So, there is no reason why "The Mainstream Church" needs to "accept homosexuality and those that engage in that behavior and demand to have it celebrated and affirmed.

Even going off topic to scribes and Pharisees and trying desperately to hang that charge around the neck of any and all "Christians" that have chosen to live a Christian life . . . doesn't alter the fact that homosexuality and those that choose to engage in the behavior and want it celebrated and condoned, have no support for doing so IN the New Testament or the culture and community that has been shown throughout history as "The Mainstream Church." So the more accurate and appropriate question to all of this gay pride propaganda, is: Why won't homosexuals just found their own "Churches" and live their belief system and worldview there? Why the need to subjugate "The Mainstream Church" under the heels of a culture and community that has no justification for that?

[UFO]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

If by being accepted means being accepted by 50.00001% of the group, yes it will eventually happen. People change and so does what they believe in. Will it ever be 100%? Probably not. But what is?

[Deidre32]

I've noticed more Christian denominations becoming accepting of gay people. And not condemning homosexuality as sinful. Even the Roman Catholic Church is allowing men who are gay to join the priesthood, providing they vow to never have sex, like any other priest, those being heterosexual taking the same vows.

I think we are seeing the tides turn.

Which to me, is a positive thing. I'm a former Christian.