Reply to topic
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:30 pm
Reply
What is the point?

Like this post
As I have been told that I have no right, as a non Jew to quote or question or interpret Hebrew scripture, what is the point of this sub forum?

Is this a "circumcised circle" for Jews only?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:46 pm
Reply
Re: What is the point?

Like this post (1): William
[Replying to post 1 by postroad]

As I said elsewhere:


First, this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a DEBATE forum.

Second, if you want to DISCUSS Judaism, it would be advisable to learn something about it. Like many Christians, you know very little about the developments in the Jewish religion since the first century -- and even that, you know only through the distorted lens of Paul, who was NOT representative of the normative Judaism -- ANY of its schools of thought -- of even his own day.

The issue here is that you are questioning and lecturing Jews on the teachings of their own religion. Shall I tell you what the proper beliefs of Christians ought to be?

Goto top, bottom
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:11 pm
Reply
Re: What is the point?

Like this post
cnorman18 wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by postroad]

As I said elsewhere:


First, this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a DEBATE forum.

Second, if you want to DISCUSS Judaism, it would be advisable to learn something about it. Like many Christians, you know very little about the developments in the Jewish religion since the first century -- and even that, you know only through the distorted lens of Paul, who was NOT representative of the normative Judaism -- ANY of its schools of thought -- of even his own day.

The issue here is that you are questioning and lecturing Jews on the teachings of their own religion. Shall I tell you what the proper beliefs of Christians ought to be?


What's that to me? I am an agnostic. You are acting in exactly the same manner that Christians do when the tenants of their belief are examined in detail.

What does the evolution of the Jewish religion have to do with what is recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures?

Are you indicating that God has changed and the Jews have had to adapt?

Or is that not up for discussion either?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:16 pm
Reply
Re: What is the point?

Like this post (1): William
postroad wrote:

cnorman18 wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by postroad]

As I said elsewhere:


First, this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a DEBATE forum.

Second, if you want to DISCUSS Judaism, it would be advisable to learn something about it. Like many Christians, you know very little about the developments in the Jewish religion since the first century -- and even that, you know only through the distorted lens of Paul, who was NOT representative of the normative Judaism -- ANY of its schools of thought -- of even his own day.

The issue here is that you are questioning and lecturing Jews on the teachings of their own religion. Shall I tell you what the proper beliefs of Christians ought to be?


What's that to me? I am an agnostic. You are acting in exactly the same manner that Christians do when the tenants of their belief are examined in detail.

You're not "examining" anything. You are simply stating that the "tenants" (sic) of our beliefs are wrong. You don't have the authority to make that judgment (and I don't think that the beliefs of our religion are rented out to anybody).
Quote:

What does the evolution of the Jewish religion have to do with what is recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures?

You're close, but the proper question is: "What do the Hebrew Scriptures have to do with the evolution of the Jewish religion?" And the answer is; the Scriptures are the record of where our religion began, not where it was to end. It was the beginning of the Jewish religion, not a blueprint for where it was to remain for all time. The Bible is the collected literature of the Jewish people. Our teachings and beliefs are found in the tradition, which has continued to change and adapt and develop from Moses onward. There are plenty of examples of the Jewish religion changing within the Torah itself; start with the story of the daughters of Zelophehad in Numbers 27, for starters. The Law had been given, and a group of women (!) came to Moses and said, "This isn't fair!" Moses went into the Tent of Meeting -- and God agreed, and the Law was amended.

The laws of Kashrut (the Kosher laws) are not given in detail anywhere in the Bible; how to slaughter an animal, which specific animals are clean and which forbidden, and how the meat is to be prepared. All that is found in the tradition, and nowhere else. What were the Jews supposed to do after the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE? Just stop practicing the religion entirely? Die? Disappear? What we DID do was learn to practice our religion without a Temple.
Quote:

Are you indicating that God has changed and the Jews have had to adapt?

Nice try, but no one has ever said that "God has changed." The WORLD has changed; Jews have had to adapt to those changes, or else not survive as a people.

It is a very ancient teaching of the Jewish religion, from the Torah itself, that "The Torah is not in Heaven." That means that now that the Torah has been given to US, the responsibility of determining its meaning is OURS. Jews were never commanded to stop using our brains and refer all questions and problems to a magic book that holds all the answers -- because the Torah, and the entire Hebrew Bible, were never given to us for that purpose. We are to THINK, and determine our path and our laws through the consensus of the wisest among us, who are also identified by consensus. You can find that in the book of Exodus; Moses himself appointed leaders with the authority to determine the proper application of the laws. That tradition goes back to the very beginning.

I realize that a rigid and unchanging Law that must be mechanically followed without deviation or the interference of human judgment is both easier to understand and apply (for those who prefer the mindless LITERALIST approach) and easier to denigrate and criticize (for those who want to ridicule ALL religion as mindless and irrational), but that has never been the Jewish way.
Quote:

Or is that not up for discussion either?

You can stop pretending that you're not allowed to discuss the Jewish religion here. What you're not allowed to do is PONTIFICATE about it from a position without knowledge of Jewish history and teachings, nor to casually demand that Jews kowtow to your ideas and agree with your flawed and ignorance-based premises.

If you are an agnostic, what is your interest in telling Jews that we must read the Bible literally and follow it mechanically and without reflection or applying our own judgment? We don't do that, thanks, and we don't believe that anyone has the right to tell us that we must -- since God Himself didn't (and don't make the fundamentalist mistake of insisting that every word in the Hebrew Bible is the direct and literal Word of God. We don't say that, and never did.)

Goto top, bottom
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:02 pm
Reply

Like this post
What is the point of humanly compiled body of text attributed to God? The collection of imaginations about God.

Useful? For what? Mental gymnastics trying to compromise the reality of life into the rigidity of the Law?

Intellectual dishonesty compartmentalising bits of texts in order to validate ones own unrighteousness?

Blah!! No foundation in reality only a worship of the past?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:40 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 5 by postroad]

Everything you say here is based on your own unsupported assumptions and stereotypes, and nothing more.

Not worth my time, since NONE of this has anything to do with the ACTUAL beliefs and practices of modern Jews.

Have a nice day.

Goto top, bottom
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:07 am
Reply

Like this post
cnorman18 wrote:

[Replying to post 5 by postroad]

Everything you say here is based on your own unsupported assumptions and stereotypes, and nothing more.

Not worth my time, since NONE of this has anything to do with the ACTUAL beliefs and practices of modern Jews.

Have a nice day.


Modern Judaism will soon be defined by the ultra orthodox. Bet on it.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:41 am
Reply

Like this post
Post deleted.

I don't think I need to continue here, for obvious reasons.

Goto top, bottom
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:28 am
Reply

Like this post
postroad wrote:

What is the point of humanly compiled body of text attributed to God? The collection of imaginations about God.

Useful? For what? Mental gymnastics trying to compromise the reality of life into the rigidity of the Law?

Intellectual dishonesty compartmentalising bits of texts in order to validate ones own unrighteousness?

Blah!! No foundation in reality only a worship of the past?


Warning Moderator Warning
As has been mentioned, "Judaism" is a discussion sub-forum, not a debate forum. If you wish to debate, take your objections to a different subforum. THIS subforum has, as its premise, that Judaism is valid; you may discuss, civilly, aspects of it, but in here, you may not challenge the beliefs, or the veracity, of Jewish beliefs.


Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   


Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version