Why is homophobia tolerated here?

[Haven]

If a person were to join this forum making racist comments, using and implying racial slurs, and saying that racial minorities were disgusting, evil, and inherently inferior, they would certainly be swiftly banned (and rightly so!). This person could say the same things about women, people from certain countries, people with disabilities, and the reaction would be the same -- a swift ban.

However, on this forum -- which prides itself on civility -- people can make bigoted and untrue comments about lesbians, gays, and bisexuals with absolutely no consequences. Not so much as a warning. Certain members have been making blatantly homophobic statements for years without even a moderator comment.

Why the double standard? Why is racism banned, but homophobia and heterosexual supremacy tolerated? Are LGB people somehow a less-deserving minority?

[Lion IRC]

[Replying to post 68 by Wootah]

Of course.
I wasn't clear at all how it was that my fellow poster failed to understand anything of what I posted. So I was giving the benefit of the doubt.
...moving on.

[Haven]

I've started a new thread in "Science & Religion" to discuss transgender identities and brain studies, if anyone is interested.

[otseng]

[Replying to post 68 by Wootah]

Of course.
I wasn't clear at all how it was that my fellow poster failed to understand anything of what I posted. So I was giving the benefit of the doubt.
...moving on.

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[enviousintheeverafter]

Your OP is a loaded question. I don't think a homophobe would describe everyone who opposes homosexuality.

Would "racist" describe everyone who opposes racial minorities? Would "sexist" describe everyone who opposes women? When you think about how you'd answer these questions, you'd realize the answer to the question I proposed in the OP.

Agreed; opposing or otherwise applying negative valuations to homosexuality/homosexuals is homophobia, regardless of whether the justification is that its "icky" or because "the Bible tells me so". That's what "homophobia" means- not really any way around it. Now, I'm not saying I think debate on the matter should be restricted or anything, but if you want to BOTH allow debate of the legal/moral issues RE homosexuality AND disallow statements of prejudice or bigotry, you're going to have to be walking a very fine line.

[Lion IRC]

If I was born with a genetic aversion to homosexual behaviour I would simply assert my right to be who I am.
And if my heterosexual self-expression bothered
someone I would explain that I simply cannot change - not even if I went to homophobe conversion therapy.

Besides, I've seen and heard homosexuals oppose same sex 'marriage'. Are they homophobes?

[Divine Insight]

If I was born with a genetic aversion to homosexual behaviour I would simply assert my right to be who I am.

No one here is questioning your right to be who you are in terms of sexual orientation.

And if my heterosexual self-expression bothered someone I would explain that I simply cannot change.

And rightfully so.

- not even if I went to homophobe conversion therapy.

There is no such thing as "hobophobe conversion therapy".

No one is asking you to change your sexual orientation. All they are requesting of you is that you show civility and respect toward other people who may not share your sexual orientation.

Besides, I've seen and heard homosexuals oppose same sex 'marriage'. Are they homophobes?

You've probably seen some racists people of color too who are clearly bigoted against "whites". Would this give you a green light to be bigoted against all people of color?

Or if you happen to be a person of color would the reverse be true. If you saw a few individual white people who were bigoted against people of color would this give you a green light to be bigoted against all white people?

Just because there may exist some people who are not of the same sexual orientation as yourself who may exhibit uncivil or bigoted attitudes toward your sexual orientation doesn't mean that you need to mimic their incivility.

[enviousintheeverafter]

If I was born with a genetic aversion to homosexual behaviour I would simply assert my right to be who I am.

You aren't, so the point is moot, but we aren't talking about an aversion anyways. If you had one, you'd be welcome to it. We're talking about the content of people's posts, and as far as I'm aware, having an aversion to homosexuality isn't the same thing as stating/posting negative valuations of homosexuality or homosexuals.

[Lion IRC]

If I was born with a genetic aversion to homosexual behaviour I would simply assert my right to be who I am.

No one here is questioning your right to be who you are in terms of sexual orientation.

They might if I was genetically predisposed and environmentally conditioned to have an aversion to homosexual behaviour. They might call my entirely natural feelings - 'homophobia'.
I see people being labelled 'homophobic' all the time and having their perfectly normal heterosexist feelings challenged.

And if my heterosexual self-expression bothered someone I would explain that I simply cannot change.

And rightfully so.

- not even if I went to homophobe conversion therapy.

There is no such thing as "homophobe conversion therapy".

I beg to differ.
Many gay people even seek professional help to address their own (internalized) homophobia. And there are qualified therapists who claim to be able to help do exactly that.
Perhaps you are more familiar with the somewhat cynical term "re-education camp" that is sometimes used to describe the type of intervention aimed at homophobic de-conversion.

No one is asking you to change your sexual orientation.

Good. Because if a person is born CIS gender and their outlook on life is heterosexist - ie. Darwinian sexual selection and opposite gender procreation - asking them to affirm and approve something they dislike would seem futile.

All they are requesting of you is that you show civility and respect toward other people who may not share your sexual orientation.

I always show civility and respect to LGBTQI people.

But sometimes the political correctness of language gets in the way and everyday words are labelled as "offensive" despite the fact that the person using them has no malice and no idea that certain minorities regard those words as tantamount to hate speech.

It's kind of tricky for non-LGBTQI people like me to know in advance which expressions people will and won't find offensive and its sad that many pre-judge the motives of people who otherwise seek open dialogue.

FWIW and I'm not concern trolling - spokespeople for the interests of LGBTQI folk would do well to allow more good-faith dialogue which recognizes that billions of CIS gender human beings would have no idea which words LGBTQI ppl find offensive.

Besides, I've seen and heard homosexuals oppose same sex 'marriage'. Are they homophobes?

You've probably seen some racists people of color too who are clearly bigoted against "whites".

One of the most racist things I see is people defining others on the basis of...you are either black or white.

Would this give you a green light to be bigoted against all people of color?

No, it wouldn't give YOU the green light to refer to people as one color or another color.
It's quite bizarre and illogical IMHO that a country which says it has a problem with 'race' relations, nonetheless continues to report news headlines that describe the gunman or the victim as "black" or "white" or makes a huge deal out of voting for a "black" President.

Or if you happen to be a person of color would the reverse be true. If you saw a few individual white people who were bigoted against people of color would this give you a green light to be bigoted against all white people?

I'm sorry, if you can please make your point without reference to the term "white people" I might be able to understand what your point is.

If your point is that two wrongs don't make a right, then I completely agree.
But...if a black bigot did the reverse of what a white bigot did to another black bigot would it be ok for all white bigots to then do the reverse and be bigots...?????

Just because there may exist some people who are not of the same sexual orientation as yourself who may exhibit uncivil or bigoted attitudes toward your sexual orientation doesn't mean that you need to mimic their incivility.

I'm not bigoted against anybody.

But you can't stop people from putting labels on you if that's what they are intent on doing.

Just take a look at the thread about trangender brain imaging / biology. It was supposed to be strictly about the science - not peoples' religious views. And yet time and time again certain non-theist posters were trying to drag religion into the thread derailing what I thought was supposed to be a secular discussion.

So when a person tries, for example, to defend gender-balanced marriage and the benefits of a heterosexual nuclear family using entirely secular arguments, it's often impossible to avoid attacks from people who simply want to label you as a homophobe, bigot, hater, Christofascist, etc.

[enviousintheeverafter]

I beg to differ.

Well, to be sure, there is something called "conversion therapy"- its just neither therapy nor involves an actual conversion.

Many gay people even seek professional help to address their own (internalized) homophobia. And there are qualified therapists who claim to be able to help do exactly that.

Unfortunately, that claim has been thoroughly debunked, and most if not all major medical organizations have spoken out against such "therapy" as not only ineffective but dangerous (mainly psychologically). There are people who claim to be able to "convert" gays- but they are lying.

Perhaps you are more familiar with the somewhat cynical term "re-education camp' that is sometimes used to describe the type of intervention aimed at homophobic de-conversion.

The "re" is misplaced, it should just be called "education" camp, since homophobia/prejudice in general is largely just a function of garden variety ignorance in the first place.

So when a person tries, for example, to defend gender-balanced marriage and the benefits of a heterosexual nuclear family using entirely secular arguments

Defend "gender-balanced marriage" against what?

[Divine Insight]

Sorry, one word posts are not permitted, I had to retract this.

Instead I used the MPG award system for the post above.